A RECENTLY ACQUIRED CUP HILT SWORD FOR COMMENTS

fernando · 5th July 2022, 04:18 PM

Judging by its characteristics, namely the pommel, i would date this 'rapier' between mid-end 17th century ... subject to your Gentlemen corrections.
This is indeed a rather long sword, by far longer than all others of mine, measuring in total 127 cms. (50"). The undulating blade, with a short fuller starting 16 cms. from the base and extending for 22 cms. Width at forte 32 m/ms., proportionaly tapering all the way to a fine point.
The grip in dark wood, with some turning lines.The pommel with traces of decorative engravings, almost gone with time. Peening looks untouched.
Anyone care to comment on this piece ? I would be glad..

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Interested Party · 5th July 2022, 05:24 PM

That had to an awkward one to carry for a man of average height for the time (67", 2.04m). Do you think the serpentine shape was original to the blade? Is that flattened pear pommel a typical characteristic for Spanish rapiers?

fernando · 5th July 2022, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

That had to an awkward one to carry for a man of average height for the time (67", 2.04m). Do you think the serpentine shape was original to the blade? Is that flattened pear pommel a typical characteristic for Spanish rapiers?

This example could well be Portuguese, not Spanish; firstly because it was acquired in Portugal and secondly due to the system to secure hilt/quillons by welding them to the cup bowl, as (more) favoured by the Portuguese, and not with a pair of arch wings screwed inside the cup bowl bottom.
The fact that long rapiers were not practical to carry around didn't prevent those more prone to engage in (street) duels to commission the so called off mark (ilegal) swords. I am looking at a (Portuguese) book where i see off mark rapiers reaching 1.465 m, called in the period 'seven span' swords. We are also aware that rapiers were not carried verticaly but almost horizontaly, by means of a proper 'frog' and the laying of the owner's hand pressuring down the hilt. Ultimately the welthy nobles would have it carried the attendant page

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As the author of this book says; not discreet to carry in the waist, nor so easy to unsheath, not to mention the difficulty to handle such long swords in a fight, but they at the distance the most brave adversary.
Yes, pommels of this type are seen, a luxury detail to distinguish them from more humble ones.
And yes, undulated blades, whether made by means of hand filing or forged by the smith, are both original. Noting again the book i have been mentioning; i can see three examples with a undulated blade in it.

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Jim McDougall · 5th July 2022, 06:02 PM

Always excited to see cup hilts as you know, and good to see the formidable character deftly holding one in the last photo. A very nice grouping you have Fernando, I am of course envious

This example is interesting, and I have always wondered about the undulating blades on these (often colloquially and it seems incorrectly, called flamberge).
I had thought that perhaps these kinds of blades alluded in the course of chivalry to the 'flaming sword that guarded the gates of Eden'. There seems to be a great deal of perspective regarding the purposes of the serrated edge on blades, and whether they had distinct purpose or how much was simply symbolic or allusion.

Obviously there are no markings or you would have mentioned them. I have always thought, as per most references I have seen, that the cuphilt was a form which did not begin as such much before about 1640.
The form held into the early 18th century but waned outside the Spanish sphere, where it remained in use by Portuguese and Spanish well into the century.

These are my understandings, and I would look forward to hearing the opinions and holdings of those here who are far better versed in this field than me. I would like to know more on the purpose (if any) of the undulating blade; if my understanding of the time range of the cuphilt is in line; and more on the more solid hilt as opposed to those pierced and ornate in engraved design.

It is indeed interesting at the length of the blade, which seems extraordinary. I am under the impression that with these swords being notably aligned with fashions of the times, that the inevitable competition element might bring such extremes. As a sword in use in accord with fencing systems of the period, a blade this length would be remarkably awkward (slow) in my thought.

Interested Party · 5th July 2022, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is indeed interesting at the length of the blade, which seems extraordinary. I am under the impression that with these swords being notably aligned with fashions of the times, that the inevitable competition element might bring such extremes. As a sword in use in accord with fencing systems of the period, a blade this length would be remarkably awkward (slow) in my thought.

Yes but one would still have to get by the point and there may have been a left hand weapon as well.

I had always assumed the undulations worked like a steak knife for push and draw cuts, as well as discouraging grabbing the blade to control it. I'm sure there were some students of Fabris still floating around

I have always wondered how useful their left arms were after surviving a few fights deflecting blades with the left hand.

fernando · 5th July 2022, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

... I had always assumed the undulations worked like a steak knife for push and draw cuts ...

The author of (again) the mentiond book considers it has a multiple cutting area, as it would happen with electric knives; a little back and forth move would inflict a quick and deep cut. I don't know if i get his idea !

midelburgo · 6th July 2022, 10:04 AM

In XVIIth century Spanish language, the half rings of the pas d'ane are called "orejas" (ears).
So I like to classify cup hilts as full ears, half ears and no ears. I believe than rather than to nationality, this is a question of evolution in time and purchasing power.
So closer to 1650, we have mostly full ears, closer to 1680, we have many half ears. And closer to 1700 and beyond we get often no ears.

No ears are cheaper because they do not have to add workmanship to screws, or ricasso plates. They can be sturdier and therefore rather military than civilian. the main disadvantage is that the blade has to fit better. And usually the same types of blades are found with these hilts. There is not the variation that is found with full ears or half ears. For example, as a military weapon, fewer no ears have a thin rapier blade. One of the types usually found is a flambergue. About how this blade works, IIRC Richard Burton has a chapter on it in his book on Swords.

These swords present often associations with Portugal, like the one with the inscription "VIVA O NOSO REI DOM IOSE O PRº DE PORTVGAL" (straight position). There are also exceptions to the ammunition grade, with even a guardapolvo (I own that one).

A curious step in the evolution has iron pieces from the cross at each side of the ricasso. This can be found with or without ears. Probably was the last step before welding the langlets to the cup.

I believe that Hortuño cup hilt has a remounted blade. The oldest cup hilt I know is in a portrait of King Phillip IV by Velazquez from 1627.

ulfberth · 6th July 2022, 11:21 AM

Congratulations on your new cup hilt Fernando, I like it because unlike most it has the Flamberge blade type and is a long one for this type of cup hilt.
Considering most rapiers of that period had a length around 120 cm or more im not that surprized to see this one with such a long blade, but yours is actualy wide to for a long blade, a very nice one!
kind regards
Ulfberth

fernando · 6th July 2022, 02:25 PM

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