Turkey Swords - C17th England

Triarii · 3rd April 2023, 01:56 PM

Hi,

Reading about 1630s English militia and they - pikemen and musketeers - are recommended to have "a sword right Turkey with a good basket hilt".

Any idea what a 'Turkey' sword would be in this context?

Jim McDougall · 3rd April 2023, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triarii

Hi,

Reading about 1630s English militia and they - pikemen and musketeers - are recommended to have "a sword right Turkey with a good basket hilt".

Any idea what a 'Turkey' sword would be in this context?

While I dont have an exact reference handy, it seems most likely that was a colloquial expression meaning loosely a 'curved blade'. This is in line with the Scottish term 'turcael' referring to same, and a Scottish basket hilt.

It seems that Scots while on campaign as mercenaries in Europe had occasion to have basket hilts mounted with curved saber blades which they compared of course to those used by the Turks.

Teisani · 3rd April 2023, 04:32 PM

Maybe this link can be of help: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3955
There's a nice example of a Ottoman sabre blade on a basket-hilt.

Jim McDougall · 3rd April 2023, 09:00 PM

Thanks for the link Teisani, we had some great discussions in those days!

Looking further, "Scottish Weapons & Fortifications" , Ed. David H.Caldwell, 1981, has some key detail, with this image on p.169 (fig. 73) showing a basket hilt from c.1646, but these had been of course in use for some time. In these times the 'basket hilt' was referred to as 'Irish hilt' as in English the 'Gaelic' was the denominator. These types of hilts had been in use in England much earlier and did not become regarded as Scottish until well into the 17th c. as the true Scottish forms developed.

In the attached footnote from Claude Blairs most important paper, "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain" the usage of the term 'Turky' referring to a type of blade is noted in the Francis Markham work of 1622, "Five Decades of Epistles of Warre", it is noted that the Turkie and Bilboe are the best.

Here can be seen the kind of colloquial terms used as the term Bilboe refers to the Port of Bilbao in northern Spain where blades from Toledo and Spanish centers were exported. Even in Shakespeare the term 'bilbo' was used to refer to a 'good blade'.
With the Turky reference, this simply an eponym for curved blade, with the Ottoman or Turkish blades being the most recognizable types in these times.

Note in the footnote, 'semetaries or turky blades'.
This of course would point to the transliterated word 'scimitar' which in the same manner became used for a curved sword. It is generally held that the word was mistranslated in Italian version referring to the Persian shamshir, with the etymology a bit more complex.

it would be interesting to have a discussion of these curious colloquial terms which often evolved into 'collectors terms' such as 'sinclair saber' etc.

Victrix · 4th April 2023, 07:44 PM

There were Scottish mercenaries fighting Ottomans in Hungary, and some apparently settled there permanently. See: https://www.hungarianottomanwars.com...the-hungaries/. Maybe they developed an affection for the Ottoman style blades.

Triarii · 5th April 2023, 04:48 PM

Jim,
I'd forgotten that the Sandal Castle example was curved - I bought the Caldwell book for the basket hilt article too. Good spot. I think in Mazansky its a close up photo so the blade isn't obvious, though he deliberately focusses on hilts.

The Markham quote which links to the term 'scimitar' had passed me by, so thankyou for that too.

3rd April 2023, 01:56 PM	#1
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 100	Turkey Swords - C17th England Hi, Reading about 1630s English militia and they - pikemen and musketeers - are recommended to have "a sword right Turkey with a good basket hilt". Any idea what a 'Turkey' sword would be in this context?

3rd April 2023, 09:00 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,817	Thanks for the link Teisani, we had some great discussions in those days! Looking further, "Scottish Weapons & Fortifications" , Ed. David H.Caldwell, 1981, has some key detail, with this image on p.169 (fig. 73) showing a basket hilt from c.1646, but these had been of course in use for some time. In these times the 'basket hilt' was referred to as 'Irish hilt' as in English the 'Gaelic' was the denominator. These types of hilts had been in use in England much earlier and did not become regarded as Scottish until well into the 17th c. as the true Scottish forms developed. In the attached footnote from Claude Blairs most important paper, "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain" the usage of the term 'Turky' referring to a type of blade is noted in the Francis Markham work of 1622, "Five Decades of Epistles of Warre", it is noted that the Turkie and Bilboe are the best. Here can be seen the kind of colloquial terms used as the term Bilboe refers to the Port of Bilbao in northern Spain where blades from Toledo and Spanish centers were exported. Even in Shakespeare the term 'bilbo' was used to refer to a 'good blade'. With the Turky reference, this simply an eponym for curved blade, with the Ottoman or Turkish blades being the most recognizable types in these times. Note in the footnote, 'semetaries or turky blades'. This of course would point to the transliterated word 'scimitar' which in the same manner became used for a curved sword. It is generally held that the word was mistranslated in Italian version referring to the Persian shamshir, with the etymology a bit more complex. it would be interesting to have a discussion of these curious colloquial terms which often evolved into 'collectors terms' such as 'sinclair saber' etc. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 3rd April 2023 at 09:30 PM.

3rd April 2023, 04:32 PM	#3
Teisani Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Location: Romania Posts: 314	Maybe this link can be of help: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3955 There's a nice example of a Ottoman sabre blade on a basket-hilt.

4th April 2023, 07:44 PM	#5
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 687	There were Scottish mercenaries fighting Ottomans in Hungary, and some apparently settled there permanently. See: https://www.hungarianottomanwars.com...the-hungaries/. Maybe they developed an affection for the Ottoman style blades.

5th April 2023, 04:48 PM	#6
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 100	Jim, I'd forgotten that the Sandal Castle example was curved - I bought the Caldwell book for the basket hilt article too. Good spot. I think in Mazansky its a close up photo so the blade isn't obvious, though he deliberately focusses on hilts. The Markham quote which links to the term 'scimitar' had passed me by, so thankyou for that too.