Hole in the blade of Chinese dao

Neil · 17th January 2011, 10:59 PM

As pictured below I have seen a hole near the tip of the blade in many many 19th century Chinese dao. I have seen both colorful cloth attached there as well as metal rings like in the second photo. Not to mention metal rings with colorful cloth attached to them. Although predominantly it is just a naked hole. In the past I have read others say the hole was used as a place to attach one end of a sling or back strap to carry the sword when on the move. All of the above sound logical to me. What I am wondering is if any one owns, or has seen examples of the slings or sling pieces, or photographs of people actually using them. Any additional thoughts on the blade holes are welcome as well. Thanks

tom hyle · 19th March 2011, 05:08 AM

Maybe they are for hanging it on the wall when you're not carrying it, relating to European butchers' cleavers, etc. Have I read that these swords frequently have no sheath in the original cultural setting?????

koto · 21st March 2011, 06:22 PM

it is for wearing on the carrier's back, strap going through

Neil · 22nd March 2011, 05:56 AM

I am happy to see some responses to the original post. Thank you both for your input. Good question about the use of scabbards in their original setting. Sadly it seems that generally speaking significantly more solo swords survived than scabbard examples, so we may be seeing a skewed perspective related to the original issue. That combined with what seems to me such minimal related written material available in English, as well as photographic material leaves me with a lot of questions unanswered. I started the thread hoping someone might share some old pictures, artifacts, or literary sources that go beyond someone in the present just saying something they heard from others. That type of information seems tough to come by though in Chinese sword study.

koto · 22nd March 2011, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by koto

it is for wearing on the carrier's back, strap going through

here is a pic I can find, showing the way wearing such kan daos

Neil · 22nd March 2011, 08:02 PM

Nice picture. Here are a few more related to military dadao scabbard use. Relatively speaking many pictures can be seen with organized forces using similar leather scabbards. This is an area that has useful photographic evidence available. Although it does not really clear up the original question of the hole in the blade. It does speak to the fact that a highly mobile group needs a means to transport their weapons. Its not a great stretch to consider the less a person moves around, and or needs to carry other gear too, then there could be less of a need for a scabbard. Just a thought, and also relative to what Tom mentioned about the use of no scabbard at all.

What would be great though is an old article or excerpt of one describing an armed non governmental group, or a photograph of possibly a civilian defense group carrying weapons similar to what we call "village" type swords that often have the holes in question. A foreigners snapshot of say a "Red Spear" group coming through town would be very interesting. No doubt this information is few and far between, but it does surface in little bits at a time. With the help of like minded friends of course

fearn · 24th March 2011, 05:46 AM

Interesting how the sabers are hung to be drawn over their left shoulders. I assume they're right handers? I wonder if that gives them a greater draw length than they would get if the blade was slung with the hilt over the right shoulder. Hmmmm.

F

Jim McDougall · 25th March 2011, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Maybe they are for hanging it on the wall when you're not carrying it, relating to European butchers' cleavers, etc. Have I read that these swords frequently have no sheath in the original cultural setting?????

Thank you for at least bringing this thread up and reposing what was indeed a most interesting question. It seems a shame nobody bothered to answer it back in January!!!!

Neil · 25th March 2011, 09:56 PM

No doubt, thanks again Tom.

When looking at these old troop photos I wonder how many of those blades had holes in them even though they have a scabbard. I have seen many photos in the past of swords like these, lets call them "military issue dadao" with what appears to be there original scabbard. Presently I can not recall any specific photograph with both a hole in the blade and scabbard present simultaneously. That being said, it caused me to look in my photo collection which turned up some interesting examples. Unfortunately I do not have any pictures of "military issue dadao" with blade holes and scabbards together, but here are a couple with holes.

I have also attached two other thought provoking photos. The first one is an illustration that may be familiar to some. Apparently the holes in this case were used for aesthetic embellishment. Clearly the second photograph is interesting in many ways, but related to the question at hand I thought it was unusual to see the way the woman with the arrow pointing at her was carrying the sword.

I am still not any closer to new answers. Although I do a two new questions. Has anyone seen a "military issue dadao" with both its scabbard and a hole in the blade. Also, what do you think the context of the last photo is with the woman and the swords. Being able to read the flag would be a great help. Any other related thoughts generally speaking would be great too. Thanks

Gavin Nugent · 26th March 2011, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Maybe they are for hanging it on the wall when you're not carrying it, relating to European butchers' cleavers, etc. Have I read that these swords frequently have no sheath in the original cultural setting?????

I find this notion strange considering they have ring pommels...economics of the matter would be why drill a hole to hang when the small hole would make it crude and difficult to pull off a peg in a hurry when they could simply be hung by the pommel....

Gav

Neil · 31st March 2011, 04:58 PM

I thought I would post this old illustration I pulled from a Chinese web site. I am not sure how old the drawing is exactly, but the site was about the Boxer Uprising. I thought it was interesting because it has a ring in the blade hole, and there is a non-ring pommel on the sword.

Neil · 18th May 2011, 03:39 PM

I am still interested in others thoughts and or evidence related to the use of the blade holes in various forms of Chinese dao. I have also posted some pictures of a couple guan dao head (偃月刀 yan yue dao) that have the feature in question. Although I have yet to see a period guan dao example with a tassel adornment attached to the hole/ring, it is standard on modern Chinese martial art practice pieces. This combined with the other evidence I have available at this point suggests to me that these various dao blade holes are more ornamentation related than utility. Any thoughts?

Gavin Nugent · 18th May 2011, 08:21 PM

Niel,

My thoughts are ornamental on the polearms, though in motion and martial use the tassle which sits in this hole may have a martial application like the tassle on the Jian, but you'd have to ask practicioners of the Yan Yue Dao to confirm this.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hinese+halberd

http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo4.html

Gav

17th January 2011, 10:59 PM	#1
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	Hole in the blade of Chinese dao As pictured below I have seen a hole near the tip of the blade in many many 19th century Chinese dao. I have seen both colorful cloth attached there as well as metal rings like in the second photo. Not to mention metal rings with colorful cloth attached to them. Although predominantly it is just a naked hole. In the past I have read others say the hole was used as a place to attach one end of a sling or back strap to carry the sword when on the move. All of the above sound logical to me. What I am wondering is if any one owns, or has seen examples of the slings or sling pieces, or photographs of people actually using them. Any additional thoughts on the blade holes are welcome as well. Thanks Attached Images Last edited by Neil; 17th January 2011 at 11:27 PM.

22nd March 2011, 05:56 AM	#4
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	I am happy to see some responses to the original post. Thank you both for your input. Good question about the use of scabbards in their original setting. Sadly it seems that generally speaking significantly more solo swords survived than scabbard examples, so we may be seeing a skewed perspective related to the original issue. That combined with what seems to me such minimal related written material available in English, as well as photographic material leaves me with a lot of questions unanswered. I started the thread hoping someone might share some old pictures, artifacts, or literary sources that go beyond someone in the present just saying something they heard from others. That type of information seems tough to come by though in Chinese sword study. Last edited by Neil; 22nd March 2011 at 06:41 AM.

22nd March 2011, 08:02 PM	#6
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	Nice picture. Here are a few more related to military dadao scabbard use. Relatively speaking many pictures can be seen with organized forces using similar leather scabbards. This is an area that has useful photographic evidence available. Although it does not really clear up the original question of the hole in the blade. It does speak to the fact that a highly mobile group needs a means to transport their weapons. Its not a great stretch to consider the less a person moves around, and or needs to carry other gear too, then there could be less of a need for a scabbard. Just a thought, and also relative to what Tom mentioned about the use of no scabbard at all. What would be great though is an old article or excerpt of one describing an armed non governmental group, or a photograph of possibly a civilian defense group carrying weapons similar to what we call "village" type swords that often have the holes in question. A foreigners snapshot of say a "Red Spear" group coming through town would be very interesting. No doubt this information is few and far between, but it does surface in little bits at a time. With the help of like minded friends of course Attached Images Last edited by Neil; 22nd March 2011 at 11:26 PM.

25th March 2011, 09:56 PM	#9
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	No doubt, thanks again Tom. When looking at these old troop photos I wonder how many of those blades had holes in them even though they have a scabbard. I have seen many photos in the past of swords like these, lets call them "military issue dadao" with what appears to be there original scabbard. Presently I can not recall any specific photograph with both a hole in the blade and scabbard present simultaneously. That being said, it caused me to look in my photo collection which turned up some interesting examples. Unfortunately I do not have any pictures of "military issue dadao" with blade holes and scabbards together, but here are a couple with holes. I have also attached two other thought provoking photos. The first one is an illustration that may be familiar to some. Apparently the holes in this case were used for aesthetic embellishment. Clearly the second photograph is interesting in many ways, but related to the question at hand I thought it was unusual to see the way the woman with the arrow pointing at her was carrying the sword. I am still not any closer to new answers. Although I do a two new questions. Has anyone seen a "military issue dadao" with both its scabbard and a hole in the blade. Also, what do you think the context of the last photo is with the woman and the swords. Being able to read the flag would be a great help. Any other related thoughts generally speaking would be great too. Thanks Attached Images Last edited by Neil; 26th March 2011 at 01:15 AM.

31st March 2011, 04:58 PM	#11
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	I thought I would post this old illustration I pulled from a Chinese web site. I am not sure how old the drawing is exactly, but the site was about the Boxer Uprising. I thought it was interesting because it has a ring in the blade hole, and there is a non-ring pommel on the sword. Attached Images

19th March 2011, 05:08 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Maybe they are for hanging it on the wall when you're not carrying it, relating to European butchers' cleavers, etc. Have I read that these swords frequently have no sheath in the original cultural setting?????

21st March 2011, 06:22 PM	#3
koto Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 27	it is for wearing on the carrier's back, strap going through

24th March 2011, 05:46 AM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Interesting how the sabers are hung to be drawn over their left shoulders. I assume they're right handers? I wonder if that gives them a greater draw length than they would get if the blade was slung with the hilt over the right shoulder. Hmmmm. F

18th May 2011, 03:39 PM	#12
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	I am still interested in others thoughts and or evidence related to the use of the blade holes in various forms of Chinese dao. I have also posted some pictures of a couple guan dao head (偃月刀 yan yue dao) that have the feature in question. Although I have yet to see a period guan dao example with a tassel adornment attached to the hole/ring, it is standard on modern Chinese martial art practice pieces. This combined with the other evidence I have available at this point suggests to me that these various dao blade holes are more ornamentation related than utility. Any thoughts? Attached Images

18th May 2011, 08:21 PM	#13
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Niel, My thoughts are ornamental on the polearms, though in motion and martial use the tassle which sits in this hole may have a martial application like the tassle on the Jian, but you'd have to ask practicioners of the Yan Yue Dao to confirm this. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hinese+halberd http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo4.html Gav