Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 16th August 2017, 09:23 PM   #1
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,194
Default Old African knives

Africa is definitely not my bailiwick, but about 15-20 years ago I came across a number of old looking, large African knives with dark patinas that seemed very reasonably priced. In the process of getting my various boxes and closets of swords sorted out this summer, I thought I would put up some pics of five of these African knives for further identification and discussion.

I apologize for not having cleaned them, and that raises the question of whether they should be cleaned, with the iron blades brought back to bright, or left as they are with the patina of age.

After looking at a number of reference texts and our online resources, here are my thoughts about where they may be from:

A. Kuba (hilt wrapped with leather strip) OAL = 24 inches
B. Kuba (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 22.5 inches
C. Tetala (hilt wrapped with rattan strip) OAL = 19 inches
D. Kusu (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 18 inches
E. Tetala (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 18.75 inches

A, B, C and E show signs of wear and use. These could be 19th C. The remaining one (D) looks more recent and unused.

I would appreciate hearing from our African experts as to where these knives originate.

Ian.
Attached Images
 
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2017, 01:40 AM   #2
Bob A
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 427
Default

I have a sword closely resembling your D photo. (FWIW, your E is not appearing in the photo array).

Mine differs from the pictured example by having a very short hilt, with no sign of ever having the heavy, blocky pommel as seen on yours. Mine was described as "Azande" on Artzi's site, and you can see it if you care to search. The blade shape and decorations are quite similar to the photos of the Tetela swords I've seen.

I don't know much about the area or the blades, but I was enthralled by the shape of the blade. By the way, my blade is extremely thin and lightweight; it could be used as a weapon, but I'd prefer something heavier for social work.

There was a light dusting of red rust on mine, which I attacked with 0000 steel wool soaked in Eezox, applying and wiping clean until he active rust was eliminated. A coat of Renaissance wax was applied to prevent further oxidation.

Regarding cleaning, my inclination is to stop active rust, but leave blades as close to the condition in which they were found. My limited understanding is that the decision to clean, and the extent thereof, varies from place to place. While aggressive cleaning might highlight some design factors, and can improve the aesthetics of a weapon, that view is limited by the preferences of the person doing the cleaning, and might well be contrary to the original maker's concept. Less is more, in my opinion, at least until such time as I might have a deeper understanding of the item, and how it fits into its milieu.
Bob A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2017, 02:50 AM   #3
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,940
Default

Hi Ian,
Far from being one of the African experts around here, so not adding more in that regard, what I do want to note is the outstanding way you present these weapons for discussion.

I wish this format was the standard for presentation of examples in all queries in threads, as here they are in a group and numbered with great photos, along with tentative classification and notes numbered accordingly.

This makes comments toward any one of the number of items easily specified and avoids misunderstandings or misplaced observations.
You have a very professional manner indeed, and adding your own preliminary notes and research sets the pace well.

Bob, great response and could not agree more! Maximum restraint on cleaning , and checking any active corrosion is of course prudent, but patination is in a sense (most cases) time inherent in the weapon, sort of history itself.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2017, 04:24 AM   #4
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,194
Default

Bob: Thanks for the thoughts. I looked up your Asande knife on the Oriental-Arms site and it does have some similarities to my D example. There is no rust on these, but the lighting seems to have added a reddish hue to the blades here and there.

Jim: Thank you for the kind words. Good to see you back.

Ian.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2017, 07:49 PM   #5
Miguel
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 584
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Africa is definitely not my bailiwick, but about 15-20 years ago I came across a number of old looking, large African knives with dark patinas that seemed very reasonably priced. In the process of getting my various boxes and closets of swords sorted out this summer, I thought I would put up some pics of five of these African knives for further identification and discussion.

I apologize for not having cleaned them, and that raises the question of whether they should be cleaned, with the iron blades brought back to bright, or left as they are with the patina of age.

After looking at a number of reference texts and our online resources, here are my thoughts about where they may be from:

A. Kuba (hilt wrapped with leather strip) OAL = 24 inches
B. Kuba (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 22.5 inches
C. Tetala (hilt wrapped with rattan strip) OAL = 19 inches
D. Kusu (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 18 inches
E. Tetala (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 18.75 inches

A, B, C and E show signs of wear and use. These could be 19th C. The remaining one (D) looks more recent and unused.

I would appreciate hearing from our African experts as to where these knives originate.

Ian.
Hi Ian,

Nice collection, I am no African expert but swords A and B look like Ngombe / Poto (Zairean) swords to me.
Miguel
Miguel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th August 2017, 02:24 PM   #6
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Hello Ian,

some interesting Central African knives/swords. I am not an expert by African blades but I have Zirngibl/Kubetz "panga na visu", a very good reference book. Another very good reference you can find here: http://www.memoire-africaine.com/armes2.html

Like Miguel I think that A & B are Ngombe or Poto knives from Congo (not Zaire), C will be also a Congo knife, possible Mbole, So, Topoke, Lokele, Mba or Genya tribe. D is clearly a Saka knife, also Congo. E is most possible a Konda/Kundu/Mongo knife, Congo as well. Compare with the given link, you will find similar examples.

Personally I would clean the blades from this knives, see also inside the link, they look much better with clean blades.

Best regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th August 2017, 08:14 PM   #7
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,194
Default

Hello Detlef:

Thank you for the link to that very informative web site. It seems that the more information that I look at, the more confused these attributions become. For example, example D that I posted, and you feel confidently is Saka, appears in Afrikanische Waffen (African Weapons) by Fischer & Zirngibl (p. 124) Fig. 221 where it is labeled as Kusu (see attached image from that reference).

Ian.
Attached Images
 
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th August 2017, 08:41 PM   #8
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,761
Default

Hi Ian,

like said, I am far away to be an expert by Congo blades, I find them very interesting and I've had and sold some very, very nice pieces and all my "knowledge" coming from the forum, panga na visu from Zirngibl and from the collecting in the link I posted. So far I know are the Saka and Kusu are neighbouring tribes but I am unsure.
Attached is a very similar knife like yours taken from the provided link and described as Saka.

Best regards,
Detlef
Attached Images
 
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd August 2017, 09:45 AM   #9
Pieje
Member
 
Pieje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 132
Default

I agree with Sajen.

A & B = Ngombe, Poto
C = Lokele, So, Topoke
D = Mongo group (mostly referred to the Saka) - nothing to do with the Azande.
E = Mongo group (mostly referred to the Konda).

Also, there are many errors in the book "Afrikanische Waffen" (African Weapons) by Fischer & Zirngibl. His last book ("Panga na Visu", which I would recommend to all interested in African weapons, and not expensive) is better, but contains some fake weapons..

C might be the oldest one (end 19th or around 1900), a small iron pommel is of older age than the larger pommels. The others I would say early 20th century).

I would definitely clean the blades, as at the time, the owners would do the same. They were proud of their weapons and would keep them bright and clean all the time.
Pieje is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2020, 01:37 PM   #10
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 717
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hi Ian,

like said, I am far away to be an expert by Congo blades, I find them very interesting and I've had and sold some very, very nice pieces and all my "knowledge" coming from the forum, panga na visu from Zirngibl and from the collecting in the link I posted. So far I know are the Saka and Kusu are neighbouring tribes but I am unsure.
Attached is a very similar knife like yours taken from the provided link and described as Saka.

Best regards,
Detlef
next to the map I already downloaded, please find here a second one which might assist all of you further when it comes to ethnic / tribal determination
Attached Images
  
gp is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.