what were the working blades of India?

KuKulzA28 · 19th June 2009, 09:11 PM

Interestingly, I've been finding it very hard to find the working blades of nations... most resources speak volumes on swords and spears and such, but unless you're talking about a culture where the tool and weapon were one (such as an ax, machete, golok, or parang) they are silent when it comes to the more mundane cutlery that was the commoners weapon, tool, and prized possession. All I know is that some Indian weapons had application outside of war... such as the Molpah and Ayda Katti, or katars when tiger-hunting, etc. I know India is a large place and has many different peoples and societies, ranging from the metropolitan where most common-folk did not own weapons, to the more tribal, where every man was expected to be or have been a warrior.

Does anyone have examples or sources of tradition Indian work blades?

Jens Nordlunde · 20th June 2009, 05:23 PM

It’s an interesting question you ask, and the answer is yes. There are other weapons than the ones you mention. Straight or tulwar blades swords, often with hunting scenes chiselled on the blades, kukris were also used in India, although they were not so common as many other weapon types and the pichangatti from Coorg – attached. There are, no doubt, others especially if you look for the tribal weapons, but it would be interesting to see what other can come up with.

Jim McDougall · 20th June 2009, 06:08 PM

Very well posed question Kukulz, and as you note, many tribal and ethnographic cultures cross utilize weapons as tools, especially in the SE Asian, Indonesian, Filipino and many other cultures where weapons such as machetes are required.

As Jens has noted, in India, the tulwar and shamshir were often used in hunting, and examples with scenes in relief of hunts etc (motif termed shikargar) are well known. In India, it seems that the hunt was not only for sport or food , but actually served as essentially a form of training and exercise for military and combat acuity. It has been suggested that in some ways, contests against wild animals were a sort of test, and it was especially challenging to fight predatory animals such as the tiger even with a katar or dagger.

The pichangatti shown by Jens was as noted, a utility knife, often with added and attached items for tonsorial use etc. however, as with most implements.....could certainly serve as a weapon as required....much as we have certainly heard of kitchen knives used. Most knives in tribal areas serve as eating utensils on occasion, dressing of game, while in most cases those of station often used various forms of knives en trousse.

As you have mentioned, the chopper type weapons such as Malabars, ayda kaetti, may have served in any number of utility uses as required, but it is doubtful such use was specifically intended.

Many weapons such as the kora, and as Jens mentioned, the kukri, were not only weapons, but used as sacrificial implements. The ram dao, which surely again, could have been used as a weapon, usually was for sacrificial use only.

These are mostly what comes to mind at the moment, but cannot think of a weapon of the subcontinent offhand made to serve as both tool and weapon.,

All best regards,
Jim

Rick · 20th June 2009, 06:31 PM

I think the kukri is an excellent example of a working knife carried by working people .

ausjulius · 21st June 2009, 06:16 PM

from what ive observed there are many of indian agricultural tool styles.. they are generaly of a very very rough quality .. and not rely weapon associated.. unlike south east asia where the tools morph into weapons and can be found in many grades of quality..
it seems the most common indian tool is a billhook type of knife .. generaly you can find this item all over the subcontinent..
also there is some double edged knives used for the specific task of opening coconuts..
another style is a clearer like tool with a rather blunt end..

i would guess there is many many other type.. but as in europe and the middle east there is a clear destinction from weapons and tools..
unlike south east asian tools..

Rick · 21st June 2009, 06:50 PM

Nepali working blade .
Dinner, coming up .

ausjulius · 21st June 2009, 06:55 PM

19th June 2009, 09:11 PM	#1
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	what were the working blades of India? Interestingly, I've been finding it very hard to find the working blades of nations... most resources speak volumes on swords and spears and such, but unless you're talking about a culture where the tool and weapon were one (such as an ax, machete, golok, or parang) they are silent when it comes to the more mundane cutlery that was the commoners weapon, tool, and prized possession. All I know is that some Indian weapons had application outside of war... such as the Molpah and Ayda Katti, or katars when tiger-hunting, etc. I know India is a large place and has many different peoples and societies, ranging from the metropolitan where most common-folk did not own weapons, to the more tribal, where every man was expected to be or have been a warrior. Does anyone have examples or sources of tradition Indian work blades?

20th June 2009, 05:23 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	It’s an interesting question you ask, and the answer is yes. There are other weapons than the ones you mention. Straight or tulwar blades swords, often with hunting scenes chiselled on the blades, kukris were also used in India, although they were not so common as many other weapon types and the pichangatti from Coorg – attached. There are, no doubt, others especially if you look for the tribal weapons, but it would be interesting to see what other can come up with. Attached Images

21st June 2009, 06:50 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Nepali working blade . Dinner, coming up . Attached Images

20th June 2009, 06:08 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Very well posed question Kukulz, and as you note, many tribal and ethnographic cultures cross utilize weapons as tools, especially in the SE Asian, Indonesian, Filipino and many other cultures where weapons such as machetes are required. As Jens has noted, in India, the tulwar and shamshir were often used in hunting, and examples with scenes in relief of hunts etc (motif termed shikargar) are well known. In India, it seems that the hunt was not only for sport or food , but actually served as essentially a form of training and exercise for military and combat acuity. It has been suggested that in some ways, contests against wild animals were a sort of test, and it was especially challenging to fight predatory animals such as the tiger even with a katar or dagger. The pichangatti shown by Jens was as noted, a utility knife, often with added and attached items for tonsorial use etc. however, as with most implements.....could certainly serve as a weapon as required....much as we have certainly heard of kitchen knives used. Most knives in tribal areas serve as eating utensils on occasion, dressing of game, while in most cases those of station often used various forms of knives en trousse. As you have mentioned, the chopper type weapons such as Malabars, ayda kaetti, may have served in any number of utility uses as required, but it is doubtful such use was specifically intended. Many weapons such as the kora, and as Jens mentioned, the kukri, were not only weapons, but used as sacrificial implements. The ram dao, which surely again, could have been used as a weapon, usually was for sacrificial use only. These are mostly what comes to mind at the moment, but cannot think of a weapon of the subcontinent offhand made to serve as both tool and weapon., All best regards, Jim

20th June 2009, 06:31 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	I think the kukri is an excellent example of a working knife carried by working people .

21st June 2009, 06:16 PM	#5
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 422	from what ive observed there are many of indian agricultural tool styles.. they are generaly of a very very rough quality .. and not rely weapon associated.. unlike south east asia where the tools morph into weapons and can be found in many grades of quality.. it seems the most common indian tool is a billhook type of knife .. generaly you can find this item all over the subcontinent.. also there is some double edged knives used for the specific task of opening coconuts.. another style is a clearer like tool with a rather blunt end.. i would guess there is many many other type.. but as in europe and the middle east there is a clear destinction from weapons and tools.. unlike south east asian tools..

21st June 2009, 06:55 PM	#7
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 422	http://www.flickr.com/photos/jailusser/2448057675/ here you can some of double and single edged hooked knives.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/meanestindian/90515979/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnibel/867502568/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/harshadsharma/331057387/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/mkuram/3588383329/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/mattlogelin/114697722/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/yameza/1334875092/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/mattlogelin/824301545/ looks homemade from an old saw that one... but it is the correct shape of a normal indian working knife... a non indian tool found in parts of india populated by tribal folks.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/lindadevolder/3437218977/ more simple knives http://www.flickr.com/photos/lennymika/2573192846/