Dagger ID, MN Garage Sale find

Craig Johnson · 31st August 2006, 05:04 AM

Hello All

I hope this finds you well. I have been away for a while but thought this might prove a puzzle for someone.

Fellow came down to the shop the other day and brought a dagger he had gotten at a garage sale. Asked if I knew what it was. It stumped me but had some interesting features so I thought I would post it here and see what the gestalt thought about it.

The piece has about an 11" blade and a four-inch grip. The scale grip is made from a very dark dense wood and I believe bone. The bone side is decorated with circles around dots. Very neatly done. Two copper rivets anchor the scales and there is a spacer liner of very thin copper between the scales and the tang as well as the bolsters and end cap.

All the work has evidence of hand file finishing. The brass or bronze bolsters are made from irregular thickness half pipe pieces and held in place with a rivet.

The blade has a rough fuller on one side and seems to have been forged as forge scale can be seen in a few places. The rest is filed and shows those deep black scratches in a feathery layout that indicate hand use as opposed to powered grinding.

Blade has a nice thickness to it at the hilt and tapers to the point feels good in the hand and would make a good tool as well as weapon.

The scabbard is something the peaked my interest even more in a way as I had not seen something put together this way before. The lower portion is a steel tapered sleeve brazed up the back on a lap seam. The central section is black leather stitched up the back over wood. The top is a copper sleeve that is soldered with the crenellated seam construction you see in old pots.( I know there is a name for this but it is slipping my mind at the moment.) The two copper bands are separate pieces and held closed by rivets at the back through the out turned ends. The hanger on the back is quite something as it is an upside down J shape where the long arm is riveted to the back of the steel sleeve and the upper bend wraps tightly around a ring that looks almost like drawn rod. The short end comes back down and wraps tightly around the rivet holding the ends of the middle copper band together. Pretty handy and a nice piece of forging, the finish is all the hand file finish.

The interior of the scabbard are three pieces of wood friction fit tightly into the scabbard leaving space for the blade and almost half the grip.

Does this style look familar to any one?

It could well have been made by some one with some skill in there garage shop but somehow its got a different sense to it than something made local.

Interested to hear your comments.

Best
Craig

fearn · 31st August 2006, 07:15 AM

I think it's a Chinese eating knife. Do a search on "Chinese trousse." I've seen similar knives sold in ethno shops in the Midwest. Typically, the sheath holds a pair of chopsticks and perhaps a pickle spear as well, but this one seems to be a knife alone.

F

Jim McDougall · 4th September 2006, 10:30 PM

Although the unusual pommel cap on this interesting knife does indeed reflect certain Asian gestalt, it seems that the dot and circle motif is typically associated with Central Asian weapons. This simple, yet distinct ,motif appears on items from Afghanistan and adjacent regions such as the lohar, and I have seen it on buzkhashi whip grips, these items probably early 20th century. It seems possible this may be a bytshak type knife that may be from Uzbek regions, but the same motif also appears on Bosnian knives, so it would be difficult to determine exactly with such diffusion.
Best regards,
Jim

Andrew · 5th September 2006, 05:33 AM

Jim, I've also seen this exact feature on recent decorative Indian kukhri.

Jim McDougall · 6th September 2006, 02:52 AM

Hi Andrew,
That seems to fall into place well as a great deal of modern examples of such classical weapons seem to derive from northwestern regions of India, particularly Rajasthan. While this motif is of course extremely simple, it seems distinctive in its application on items from regions described.
All best regards,
Jim

Ferguson · 6th September 2006, 05:13 PM

Tibet? Bhutan?

Just a wild guess.

Steve

31st August 2006, 05:04 AM	#1
Craig Johnson Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 12	Dagger ID, MN Garage Sale find Hello All I hope this finds you well. I have been away for a while but thought this might prove a puzzle for someone. Fellow came down to the shop the other day and brought a dagger he had gotten at a garage sale. Asked if I knew what it was. It stumped me but had some interesting features so I thought I would post it here and see what the gestalt thought about it. The piece has about an 11" blade and a four-inch grip. The scale grip is made from a very dark dense wood and I believe bone. The bone side is decorated with circles around dots. Very neatly done. Two copper rivets anchor the scales and there is a spacer liner of very thin copper between the scales and the tang as well as the bolsters and end cap. All the work has evidence of hand file finishing. The brass or bronze bolsters are made from irregular thickness half pipe pieces and held in place with a rivet. The blade has a rough fuller on one side and seems to have been forged as forge scale can be seen in a few places. The rest is filed and shows those deep black scratches in a feathery layout that indicate hand use as opposed to powered grinding. Blade has a nice thickness to it at the hilt and tapers to the point feels good in the hand and would make a good tool as well as weapon. The scabbard is something the peaked my interest even more in a way as I had not seen something put together this way before. The lower portion is a steel tapered sleeve brazed up the back on a lap seam. The central section is black leather stitched up the back over wood. The top is a copper sleeve that is soldered with the crenellated seam construction you see in old pots.( I know there is a name for this but it is slipping my mind at the moment.) The two copper bands are separate pieces and held closed by rivets at the back through the out turned ends. The hanger on the back is quite something as it is an upside down J shape where the long arm is riveted to the back of the steel sleeve and the upper bend wraps tightly around a ring that looks almost like drawn rod. The short end comes back down and wraps tightly around the rivet holding the ends of the middle copper band together. Pretty handy and a nice piece of forging, the finish is all the hand file finish. The interior of the scabbard are three pieces of wood friction fit tightly into the scabbard leaving space for the blade and almost half the grip. Does this style look familar to any one? It could well have been made by some one with some skill in there garage shop but somehow its got a different sense to it than something made local. Interested to hear your comments. Best Craig Attached Images Last edited by Craig Johnson; 31st August 2006 at 05:08 AM. Reason: lost picture

31st August 2006, 07:15 AM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I think it's a Chinese eating knife. Do a search on "Chinese trousse." I've seen similar knives sold in ethno shops in the Midwest. Typically, the sheath holds a pair of chopsticks and perhaps a pickle spear as well, but this one seems to be a knife alone. F

4th September 2006, 10:30 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Although the unusual pommel cap on this interesting knife does indeed reflect certain Asian gestalt, it seems that the dot and circle motif is typically associated with Central Asian weapons. This simple, yet distinct ,motif appears on items from Afghanistan and adjacent regions such as the lohar, and I have seen it on buzkhashi whip grips, these items probably early 20th century. It seems possible this may be a bytshak type knife that may be from Uzbek regions, but the same motif also appears on Bosnian knives, so it would be difficult to determine exactly with such diffusion. Best regards, Jim

5th September 2006, 05:33 AM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Jim, I've also seen this exact feature on recent decorative Indian kukhri.

6th September 2006, 02:52 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Hi Andrew, That seems to fall into place well as a great deal of modern examples of such classical weapons seem to derive from northwestern regions of India, particularly Rajasthan. While this motif is of course extremely simple, it seems distinctive in its application on items from regions described. All best regards, Jim

6th September 2006, 05:13 PM	#6
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Tibet? Bhutan? Just a wild guess. Steve