talking to an old PI soldier

[Bill]

who served in the Southern Philippines from 1950-83. A few interesting things. The use of swords, spears, & bow/arrow against government soldiers was common untill 1970, then groups that opposed the gov. were funded & supplied from outside the PI, & the groups went from "primitive" weapons to superior weapons almost overnight. The interesting thing is that this fellow states it was easier to fight the better armed groups, as earlier ambushes were always well planned, & a quick retreat into boobytraps for the gov. soldiers. Better armed, opposition groups, became over confident, & stood thier ground; often to the avantage of the better trained soldiers. Typical of attacks, earlier in his career, were single archers hidding in trees, or groups that would have the high ground & shoot high into the air, so that the arrows would be coming staight down. Krismen often would wait in tall grass, & were quite feared, the wounds from the kris were always fatal, he states. He gave me many examples of the kris attacks & the damage done, as he said, the body never stops the blade. As to the barung, I was surprised, his opinion was that it was not as deadly as the kris. He stated he never saw a man survive a kris wound, but did see men survive barung wounds.

[Tim Simmons]

Stab is more fatal than slash Very interesting.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Stab is more fatal than slash Very interesting.

Hmm , I never considered the Moro kris to be primarily a stabbing weapon .
A longer blade possibly used with two hands = more mass , force , and a chopping / drawn blow combination .

Now that'll kill ya .

[nechesh]

I'd have to agree with Rick there, Tim. Many Moro keris have relatively dull points and wouldn't necessarily be very good stabbing weapons. Now that Chop and draw blow, ouch!

[Ian]

One of the purported advantages of a wavy edged blade over a straight edged one is the inherently longer cutting edge of the wavy one for blades of the same overall length. The wavy blade may allow greater contact with the target and (supposedly) permit a deeper cut than a straight edge. Don't know if this theory holds any water, but I have heard it expressed on several occasions. There is some intuitive appeal to the argument. Perhaps some of our Filipino escrima experts can provide some definitive comments.

Ian.

[Freddy]

I agree to the fact the a stab is far more dangerous than a slash.

A stab wound with a knife (with straight or wavy blade) will often cause internal damage to the body. I've seen victims with stab wounds running around as if nothing happened. Often these people were excited by the event.
Afterwards in the hospital their condition became critical as it's difficult to know the damage inflicted inside the body. From the outside, you only see a puncture wound. That's why it's important to take stab victims to the E.R. as soon as possible.

Others who had slash wounds were bleeding a lot, and this looks far worse. But unless an important artery is cut, the wound will be not as life threatening.

Whether a wavy blade is more dangerous than a straight one, I don't know. Kerises are made with both types of blade. Isn't it a fact that the form of a keris blade is more symbolic : straight blade is the Naga in rest, wavy blade is the Naga in movement ?

[Federico]

Originally Posted by Bill

who served in the Southern Philippines from 1950-83. A few interesting things. The use of swords, spears, & bow/arrow against government soldiers was common untill 1970, then groups that opposed the gov. were funded & supplied from outside the PI, & the groups went from "primitive" weapons to superior weapons almost overnight. The interesting thing is that this fellow states it was easier to fight the better armed groups, as earlier ambushes were always well planned, & a quick retreat into boobytraps for the gov. soldiers. Better armed, opposition groups, became over confident, & stood thier ground; often to the avantage of the better trained soldiers. Typical of attacks, earlier in his career, were single archers hidding in trees, or groups that would have the high ground & shoot high into the air, so that the arrows would be coming staight down. Krismen often would wait in tall grass, & were quite feared, the wounds from the kris were always fatal, he states. He gave me many examples of the kris attacks & the damage done, as he said, the body never stops the blade. As to the barung, I was surprised, his opinion was that it was not as deadly as the kris. He stated he never saw a man survive a kris wound, but did see men survive barung wounds.

Ok, in the early 50s you have the Kamlon uprising, my Uncle served and was killed in that one. But before the MNLF start in the late 60s, what was the PI army doing down there? From all Ive heard after the Kamlon event (from people living in the area, books, etc...), til the MNLF times and uprisings down there were some of the most peaceful in the region in centuries (well as peaceful as it ever gets down there aside from general political terrorism against civilians, blood feuds, and crime). At least in terms of involvement of the army. Was this guy speaking of general fighting/feuds? Kamlon used guns, and there are many people who attest that after WWII guns were quite common in the area. Im sure people still used kris and barong for whatever personal reasons, but I havent heard the bow being common?

[zamboanga]

Hi Bill,

Would be interested to know where your friend was stationed at that time - Jolo or mainland mindanao?

I too am not familiar with the bow and arrow being of common use at that time, at least from Zambasulta's recent history.

[Bill]

I was very surprised to hear of the use of bow & arrow in fighting, I tried to be very specific, & his first hand experiences were, that it was the most common attack on gov. troops through out the South (50's&60's). Also he was very clear that ambushes with firearms were not that common untill 1970. I will try & re-confirm both, but think the results will be the same. He also told me that troops taken prisioners were always beheaded, that a man wounded by the kris could no longer fight, could not be left behind or moved, there was little to be done for him untill he passed; but a man shot, often, could still fight & as well, travel.

[Bill]

Just ran accross this: http://www.moroinfo.com/ch6_annexati...suloprint.html , know there is some real sensitive subjects here, not trying to raise any, but do find it interesting that the kris was still used against a trained military up to 1970.

[jmings]

On SFI I've read that records from Europian battles that cuts were more immediatly disabling but that punctures were more often eventually fatal. This agrees with the above posts.