Nothing at all to do with keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

This post either has absolutely nothing to do with keris, or it has absolutely everything to do with keris.

How you percieve its relevance to the keris is dependent upon how your mind works.

At the heart of keris understanding for the modern collector, both within keris bearing cultures, and outside keris bearing cultures, is the question of origin in both geographic terms and in terms of age of the relevant keris.

The way in which we address this question of origin can very often be quite humorous if we care to take two long steps back from the matter and address it in a purely objective and logical way.

Without becoming too involved in discussion of the source of humour, it may be sufficient to observe that as a group, and individually, we tend to either take shelter in vagueness, or regard vagueness as certainty. We swim in a sea of vagueness.

Recently I was lent a really wonderful book. Possibly the best bit of reading I've had in front of me in a long time:-

Not Exactly: In praise of vagueness --- Kees van Deemter (Oxford University Press)

As I have been reading it, I have constantly been amused by the matters treated in this book, and the attitudes and conventions of those of us who have an interest in the keris.

If your mind functions in a way that relates ideas, characteristics, information , that is relevant to one sphere to similar ideas etc that are relevant in other spheres, and thus provide better understanding of the functionality of concepts within disparate spheres, you will enjoy this book:-

http://www.csd.abdn.ac.uk/~kvdeemte/NotExactly-book

Here is a sample:-

http://www.csd.abdn.ac.uk/~kvdeemte/...eemter-c01.pdf


However, if you seek clear-cut answers that progress in a straight line, you will very probably not enjoy it at all.

If you do bring yourself to read it, you may better understand what we are dealing with when we set out to categorise keris.

[David]

hmmm...i vote "absolutely everything to do with keris"...

[ThePepperSkull]

Very interesting.

As someone who is just learning about all things keris, my mind is set on "Categorize" in order for me to remember terms and absorb knowledge more easily.

It seems to me that the more experienced of veteran collectors and connoiseurs, such as Mr Maisey, are less inclined to categorize or critique and more inclined to appreciate the work that may go into a keris. Perhaps because of his more in-depth knowledge, perhaps because of his experiences with the keris, or maybe even because of some sort of cultural difference between he and others like myself on this message board.

I am reminded from personal experience of Philippine edged weaponry, where (on this forum as well), we tend to try to set apart what a Sanduko is from a Tenegre or a Talibon from a Garab. In the Philippines, however, they are just known collectively and simply as "Bolo" or "Itak".

[BluErf]

My 2 bits - Vagueness - one of the ways people use to deal with questions they cannot precisely answer, to make sense of the world which they cannot fully perceive or think about. A way to generate working patterns that can be used. The by-product of not being able to articulate what our brain has seen and known. What many people do to keep themselves from going insane.

[Alam Shah]

My 1 bit.. what is clear is, no one knows everything for sure.. the more we know, the more we'll discover things that we do not.. the more we're sure, we'll discover information that will challenge our perceptions and theories..

Kai Wee, I like your 2 bits..

Categorize.. to a certain extend imho, is necessary.. In the keris world, to streamline certain forms, features and other such parameters, helps to form an opinion.. however, there will be exceptions.. for example, in the case of the Bugis keris blades, it covers a large geographical area, how can we tell them apart?

Names, Nomenclatures.. to a certain extent helps to express/define what one is talking about.. but over time, I found that the variations are 'endless' from region to region.. to an extreme extent, from state to state.. (as mentioned by Alan before)..

[ganjawulung]

Interesting topic on interesting book,

May i quote this interesting statement of Mr van Deemter on vagueness, as Alan posted in this thread:

...In the course of this book, it will become clear that vagueness is
everywhere: if you believe a concept to be completely crisp, then examine
it more closely and it will often prove to be vague. Size-denoting terms
such as ‘small’ and ‘large’ are obviously vague, for example, but so are
colour terms, at least in ordinary language, where sharp boundaries are
not artificially imposed on them...

and also,

...The aim of this book is to explore how vagueness works, and why it
pervades communication. It is part and parcel of this enterprise to ask
why vagueness is not always a bad thing: we shall see that sometimes
vagueness is simply unavoidable, while on other occasions vagueness is
actually preferable to precision. We shall also devote considerable space
to discussing the implications of our findings for the construction of
Artificially Intelligent systems, which are slowly but surely starting to be
endowed with a human-like capacity to produce and understand ordinary
language....

We deal with vagueness, everyday, in our Warung kopi here. Are we all crisp? As Waroeng itself, in the daily meaning in Jawa is also a place of "vagueness" in the sense of people in Jawanese waroeng, sometimes will talk about serious things -- whether it is political matter, or criminal matter, even moral matter -- in a vague way....

GANJAWULUNG