Persian (?) shamshir.

Sylektis · 22nd February 2020, 05:02 PM

Any iformation on this shamsir could be usefull. Origin, type of wootz, translation and a mild way of cleaning if it is possible.

ariel · 22nd February 2020, 07:18 PM

Interesting one.
Very nice wootz , unfortunately quite rusty in areas.

I am not concerned with authenticity and respectable age, but there are intriguing inconsistencies (?):

The blade has several narrow fullers interspersed with flat areas: this was often seen on Afghani blades.
The koft is pretty crude, and Persians were very careful
The upper part of the blade has silver koft, not typical for Persia, but very frequent on Arabian ( especially Syrian ) ones.
The upper langet is surrounded by wire (?), - another Arabian feature.
The pommel is downturned, yet another North Arabian, Bedawi, feature.

I tend to think that it might be an Afghani blade, decorated and mounted in the Syrian part of the Ottoman Empire. Why not vice versa? Because carving an entire fuller array would be a major undertaking, while applying koft is a no brainer.

I would be generous with WD-40 to remove any rust.

BTW, a question: would anyone use Rust Converter here? There are multiple pits with active rust and there is no chance one can remove it piece by piece. Or, treatment with tannic acid would destroy wootz appearance? After all, acid etching is in fact a controlled rusting.

TVV · 22nd February 2020, 07:57 PM

Could the hilt be from Hyderabad, based on the slightly curved down turned pommel?

There was a discussion on this topic in the forum in the past:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...rabad+shamshir

ariel · 22nd February 2020, 08:20 PM

I thought about it, and that would fit nicely with the Afghani origin, but there is no hole for the ring and the "bend" is not strong enough. Dang! Here goes the hypothesis!

Kubur · 22nd February 2020, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Could the hilt be from Hyderabad, based on the slightly curved down turned pommel?

There was a discussion on this topic in the forum in the past:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...rabad+shamshir

I was thinking about that but the rivets and the leather don't match.

For sure the blade is Persian and Marius will be right to say that this blade should return to her former glory.

The guard looks Persian to me and I understand Sylektis this is a small mystery... May be Balutchi???

Oliver Pinchot · 22nd February 2020, 09:19 PM

Sylektis, can you post closeups of the pommel and hilt bosses, as well as the tip of the blade, please? We can say the following: the grips, pommel and koftgari on the blade are likely Ottoman provincial work (Arab provinces.) However, closer examination of the motifs may prove otherwise.

Earlier on, some Ottoman sword grips were octagonal and often wood covered in leather (this characteristic also appears on Afghan shamshir hilts much later; typical stylistic conservatism.)

The guard is also an earlier Ottoman style but similar are found on some later sabers. At the minimum, it's clear this sword was mounted in a culturally, probably isolated, area.

The blade appears to have been forged with a broader central fuller originally; the small interrupted fullers along the spine and outlining the fuller could have been cut in later.

Ariel, old chum, I agree with you generally, pending more photos. However, when you use the term "afghani," I cringe. It's a coin, not an ethnic group. In English, the term is "Afghan." Same goes for "Uzbeki"-- this isn't English. People from Uzbekistan are called Uzbeks. Too, the correct name for the Iranian language in English is "Persian," not Farsi. It's like saying, He speaks Espanol, or he speaks francais.

Look forward to seeing closeups of the hilt and also the last few inches of the blade.

ariel · 22nd February 2020, 11:06 PM

Oliver,
I go by what is a " good stuff":-)
Uzbek or Afghan is an ethnicity. Uzbeki or Afghani is "... of Uzbek or Afghan origin",
I am sure you know how good the "Uzbeki" is:-))

See:

Sylektis · 23rd February 2020, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Sylektis, can you post closeups of the pommel and hilt bosses, as well as the tip of the blade, please? We can say the following: the grips, pommel and koftgari on the blade are likely Ottoman provincial work (Arab provinces.) However, closer examination of the motifs may prove otherwise.

Earlier on, some Ottoman sword grips were octagonal and often wood covered in leather (this characteristic also appears on Afghan shamshir hilts much later; typical stylistic conservatism.)

The guard is also an earlier Ottoman style but similar are found on some later sabers. At the minimum, it's clear this sword was mounted in a culturally, probably isolated, area.

The blade appears to have been forged with a broader central fuller originally; the small interrupted fullers along the spine and outlining the fuller could have been cut in later.

Ariel, old chum, I agree with you generally, pending more photos. However, when you use the term "afghani," I cringe. It's a coin, not an ethnic group. In English, the term is "Afghan." Same goes for "Uzbeki"-- this isn't English. People from Uzbekistan are called Uzbeks. Too, the correct name for the Iranian language in English is "Persian," not Farsi. It's like saying, He speaks Espanol, or he speaks francais.

Look forward to seeing closeups of the hilt and also the last few inches of the blade.

Thank you very much guys for the help you have given me, with your knowledge and experience.
I am uploading the photos that Oliver requested to complete your opinion.
And again I ask, what is your opinion on blade cleaning?

22nd February 2020, 05:02 PM	#1
Sylektis Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 136	Persian (?) shamshir. Any iformation on this shamsir could be usefull. Origin, type of wootz, translation and a mild way of cleaning if it is possible. Attached Images

22nd February 2020, 08:20 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I thought about it, and that would fit nicely with the Afghani origin, but there is no hole for the ring and the "bend" is not strong enough. Dang! Here goes the hypothesis! Last edited by ariel; 22nd February 2020 at 08:31 PM.

22nd February 2020, 11:06 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Oliver, I go by what is a " good stuff":-) Uzbek or Afghan is an ethnicity. Uzbeki or Afghani is "... of Uzbek or Afghan origin", I am sure you know how good the "Uzbeki" is:-)) See: Attached Images

22nd February 2020, 07:18 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Interesting one. Very nice wootz , unfortunately quite rusty in areas. I am not concerned with authenticity and respectable age, but there are intriguing inconsistencies (?): The blade has several narrow fullers interspersed with flat areas: this was often seen on Afghani blades. The koft is pretty crude, and Persians were very careful The upper part of the blade has silver koft, not typical for Persia, but very frequent on Arabian ( especially Syrian ) ones. The upper langet is surrounded by wire (?), - another Arabian feature. The pommel is downturned, yet another North Arabian, Bedawi, feature. I tend to think that it might be an Afghani blade, decorated and mounted in the Syrian part of the Ottoman Empire. Why not vice versa? Because carving an entire fuller array would be a major undertaking, while applying koft is a no brainer. I would be generous with WD-40 to remove any rust. BTW, a question: would anyone use Rust Converter here? There are multiple pits with active rust and there is no chance one can remove it piece by piece. Or, treatment with tannic acid would destroy wootz appearance? After all, acid etching is in fact a controlled rusting.

22nd February 2020, 07:57 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,623	Could the hilt be from Hyderabad, based on the slightly curved down turned pommel? There was a discussion on this topic in the forum in the past: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...rabad+shamshir

22nd February 2020, 09:19 PM	#6
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Sylektis, can you post closeups of the pommel and hilt bosses, as well as the tip of the blade, please? We can say the following: the grips, pommel and koftgari on the blade are likely Ottoman provincial work (Arab provinces.) However, closer examination of the motifs may prove otherwise. Earlier on, some Ottoman sword grips were octagonal and often wood covered in leather (this characteristic also appears on Afghan shamshir hilts much later; typical stylistic conservatism.) The guard is also an earlier Ottoman style but similar are found on some later sabers. At the minimum, it's clear this sword was mounted in a culturally, probably isolated, area. The blade appears to have been forged with a broader central fuller originally; the small interrupted fullers along the spine and outlining the fuller could have been cut in later. Ariel, old chum, I agree with you generally, pending more photos. However, when you use the term "afghani," I cringe. It's a coin, not an ethnic group. In English, the term is "Afghan." Same goes for "Uzbeki"-- this isn't English. People from Uzbekistan are called Uzbeks. Too, the correct name for the Iranian language in English is "Persian," not Farsi. It's like saying, He speaks Espanol, or he speaks francais. Look forward to seeing closeups of the hilt and also the last few inches of the blade.