Tri fullered Kaskara, Tabouka and Kattara help

katana · 20th May 2011, 02:31 PM

Would formites please post the dimensions of any tri fullered export blades ... the type that tend to be fitted to Kaskara, Tabouka and Kattara. Length not so important as this dimension is likely altered to suit local tastes. The blade thickness and width would probably help to compare the blades ....as would the blade shape 'cross section' .

Charles has posted a Sumatran blade which looks very similar to the trade blades fitted to the above swords, it may be an anomaly but dimension comparison may prove/disprove the source of the blade

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...873#post120873

It may be interesting to see how far these trade blades travelled and to whom.
Thank you

Kind Regards David

Iain · 20th May 2011, 03:05 PM

Hi David,

I've got two takouba on hand at the moment that are probable export blades (with takouba it's often hard to tell precisely what's native/export as some of the native blades are darn good quality but the basic dimensions should be the same anyways).

No calipers at the moment but blade widths are 4.5cm and 4.8cm at the base, significantly larger than Charles' piece at roughly 3.8cm. I would call these two typical takouba in the triple fuller pattern. I would caution that due to different production 'runs' and models of these blades none of this may be particularly conclusive in terms of ruling out origin for Charles' blade, but from Charles' description and the photos it does not appear to me his blade has been extensively modified or re profiled. In conjunction with the smaller size I would have difficulty being convinced that this is a modified trade blade, but rather, if European, a pattern made for this market.

I would note that similar fullering exists on some Indian blades as well and of course piso podang are found with straight blades occasionally that seem to be in the same pattern as takouba/kaskara. How relevant that may be I have no idea.

Cheers,

Iain

katana · 20th May 2011, 03:41 PM

Thanks Iain

,
not having a tri-fullered blade to hand, I was not certain as to the usual dimensions of such a blade. Regretfully, I sold my Takouba (3 fullers) a few years ago

so had nothing 'to go on' )

Nevertheless, having the dimensions of the imported blades could prove useful and may give a good indication when compared to native made blades that mimic European blades. It would also be interesting to see if some of the Kattara were supplied with the same 'pattern' of blade.

I also wondered whether such blades were supplied ready to hilt and just needed sharpening....or if the blades were more 'raw' which allowed the locals to profile the blade to have either a double or single edge...and would also be, I assume, cheaper to purchase.

All the best

David

Iain · 20th May 2011, 04:13 PM

No problem David.

I have at any given time ten or so of these things lying around, but I just don't have that many triple fullers around right now. Personally I think you'll find more or less the same tolerances in native blades width wise - perhaps some differences in thickness and of course certainly in flex, stiffness and hardness.

As for how they were supplied - I know a lot of the single fullered kaskara blades were delivered fairly rough in appearance. For takouba it seems the tips were often re profiled and among some groups like the Tuareg the preferred methods of sharpening left very rough surfaces and edges. My impression, which might be wrong, was typically that they'd be delivered with a "factory" edge (meaning a bit blunt). I don't think anyone would claim these were being imported for aesthetics but simply for the steel quality, so a rough finish wouldn't have been a detractor.

Cheers,

Iain

Royston · 26th May 2011, 05:35 PM

Hello David.

I have two triple fullered Kaskaras.
One at 4.3cm wide and about 3 mm thick the other 4.8 x 3

Regards
Roy

katana · 27th May 2011, 09:29 PM

Hi Royston

,
apologies for my late reply

(I became focused on a possible Nihonto I have just acquired)

Thank you . it does seem that there are variations to blade width, which suggests several manufacturers supplied them ....unless the blades were heavily modified locally.
All the best

KInd Regards David

Jim McDougall · 27th May 2011, 10:13 PM

Hi David,
The dispersement of these blades, most commonly known on kaskara, would be difficult to track as far as diffusion in the vast trade networks, and in my opinion must be viewed largely on case by case basis. Simply trying to determine origins and movement in the areas most known in the Sudan and Saharan regions is difficult at best.
Blades of triple fuller type are known as far as West African coastal regions such as Sierra Leone where kaskara style blades are in rondel type cylindrical hilts; as mentioned they occur in many kattara which may be from the Omani sultanate in Zanzibar but that remains debatable; and I have even seen them in Indian pata.

With the pronounced commercialism in Solingen, and that they were supplying blades to Abyssinia, India, Sudan, and of course many regulation blades nilitarily to many nations by the latter 19th century, it would be extremely hard to say on this example. Whether it is reprofiled or not is gard to say from photos.....if it is double edged than it may be a kaskara type blade...but as Iain notes, it does not seem readily so. Perhaps a prototype for potential export to Sumatran regions ?

All the best,
Jim

katana · 27th May 2011, 11:01 PM

Thank you Jim

,
it was worth a try ......I just wondered whether large quantities of the same mass produced blades were traded across a large area, later customised to local tastes. It seems that this is not the case

Kind Regards David

Jim McDougall · 27th May 2011, 11:28 PM

It sure was David, and quite honestly I am among many who have honestly tried to figure this out for some time. It is clear that the most prevalent presence of these was undoubtedly in the North African regions, but as trade competition and diversification compounded, not to mention the complexities of geopolitical strife in colonial regions globally, as well as intertribal warfare causing considerable rerouting in many trade situations (as well known in North Africa) there are many possibilities.

Factor in the native makers accomplishing some pretty impressive blades as well, and there you have it..chaos!!

All the best,
Jim

20th May 2011, 02:31 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Tri fullered Kaskara, Tabouka and Kattara help Would formites please post the dimensions of any tri fullered export blades ... the type that tend to be fitted to Kaskara, Tabouka and Kattara. Length not so important as this dimension is likely altered to suit local tastes. The blade thickness and width would probably help to compare the blades ....as would the blade shape 'cross section' . Charles has posted a Sumatran blade which looks very similar to the trade blades fitted to the above swords, it may be an anomaly but dimension comparison may prove/disprove the source of the blade http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...873#post120873 It may be interesting to see how far these trade blades travelled and to whom. Thank you Kind Regards David

26th May 2011, 05:35 PM	#5
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Kaskaras Hello David. I have two triple fullered Kaskaras. One at 4.3cm wide and about 3 mm thick the other 4.8 x 3 Regards Roy

27th May 2011, 10:13 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi David, The dispersement of these blades, most commonly known on kaskara, would be difficult to track as far as diffusion in the vast trade networks, and in my opinion must be viewed largely on case by case basis. Simply trying to determine origins and movement in the areas most known in the Sudan and Saharan regions is difficult at best. Blades of triple fuller type are known as far as West African coastal regions such as Sierra Leone where kaskara style blades are in rondel type cylindrical hilts; as mentioned they occur in many kattara which may be from the Omani sultanate in Zanzibar but that remains debatable; and I have even seen them in Indian pata. With the pronounced commercialism in Solingen, and that they were supplying blades to Abyssinia, India, Sudan, and of course many regulation blades nilitarily to many nations by the latter 19th century, it would be extremely hard to say on this example. Whether it is reprofiled or not is gard to say from photos.....if it is double edged than it may be a kaskara type blade...but as Iain notes, it does not seem readily so. Perhaps a prototype for potential export to Sumatran regions ? All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 27th May 2011 at 11:22 PM.

20th May 2011, 03:05 PM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi David, I've got two takouba on hand at the moment that are probable export blades (with takouba it's often hard to tell precisely what's native/export as some of the native blades are darn good quality but the basic dimensions should be the same anyways). No calipers at the moment but blade widths are 4.5cm and 4.8cm at the base, significantly larger than Charles' piece at roughly 3.8cm. I would call these two typical takouba in the triple fuller pattern. I would caution that due to different production 'runs' and models of these blades none of this may be particularly conclusive in terms of ruling out origin for Charles' blade, but from Charles' description and the photos it does not appear to me his blade has been extensively modified or re profiled. In conjunction with the smaller size I would have difficulty being convinced that this is a modified trade blade, but rather, if European, a pattern made for this market. I would note that similar fullering exists on some Indian blades as well and of course piso podang are found with straight blades occasionally that seem to be in the same pattern as takouba/kaskara. How relevant that may be I have no idea. Cheers, Iain

20th May 2011, 03:41 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Iain , not having a tri-fullered blade to hand, I was not certain as to the usual dimensions of such a blade. Regretfully, I sold my Takouba (3 fullers) a few years ago so had nothing 'to go on' ) Nevertheless, having the dimensions of the imported blades could prove useful and may give a good indication when compared to native made blades that mimic European blades. It would also be interesting to see if some of the Kattara were supplied with the same 'pattern' of blade. I also wondered whether such blades were supplied ready to hilt and just needed sharpening....or if the blades were more 'raw' which allowed the locals to profile the blade to have either a double or single edge...and would also be, I assume, cheaper to purchase. All the best David

20th May 2011, 04:13 PM	#4
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	No problem David. I have at any given time ten or so of these things lying around, but I just don't have that many triple fullers around right now. Personally I think you'll find more or less the same tolerances in native blades width wise - perhaps some differences in thickness and of course certainly in flex, stiffness and hardness. As for how they were supplied - I know a lot of the single fullered kaskara blades were delivered fairly rough in appearance. For takouba it seems the tips were often re profiled and among some groups like the Tuareg the preferred methods of sharpening left very rough surfaces and edges. My impression, which might be wrong, was typically that they'd be delivered with a "factory" edge (meaning a bit blunt). I don't think anyone would claim these were being imported for aesthetics but simply for the steel quality, so a rough finish wouldn't have been a detractor. Cheers, Iain

27th May 2011, 09:29 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Royston , apologies for my late reply (I became focused on a possible Nihonto I have just acquired) Thank you . it does seem that there are variations to blade width, which suggests several manufacturers supplied them ....unless the blades were heavily modified locally. All the best KInd Regards David

27th May 2011, 11:01 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thank you Jim , it was worth a try ......I just wondered whether large quantities of the same mass produced blades were traded across a large area, later customised to local tastes. It seems that this is not the case Kind Regards David

27th May 2011, 11:28 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	It sure was David, and quite honestly I am among many who have honestly tried to figure this out for some time. It is clear that the most prevalent presence of these was undoubtedly in the North African regions, but as trade competition and diversification compounded, not to mention the complexities of geopolitical strife in colonial regions globally, as well as intertribal warfare causing considerable rerouting in many trade situations (as well known in North Africa) there are many possibilities. Factor in the native makers accomplishing some pretty impressive blades as well, and there you have it..chaos!! All the best, Jim