Afghani pulwar: old and ( perhaps) revealing

ariel · 23rd December 2019, 07:45 PM

This is an Afghani pulwar, with a typical Afghani blade : false edge, narrow profile and very thick spine, thin fullers interrupted by flat planes and indentations filled with yellow and red lac. I suspect it is wootz because of a long " seam" or "crack" at the spine, but could not reveal it with lime juice or ferrous sulfate.

But my real question is about its handle: crudely-cast brass with very deep cup-like pommel and a baluster going all the way up from the bottom and having a lanyard hole. At first blush I thought that it was a traditional Afghani pommel with a lid lost, but the lanyard hole looked to be located quite low, below the presumed lid. I placed a very thin piece of metal next to it and indeed, at least a third of the hole was below the level of the presumed lid.
The rivet through the guard is distinctive though one can see this construction in Jodhpur in the 19th century examples and in the south even earlier (See Elgood's " Rajput Arms", vol. 1, p.22): the "adoption" of that feature went from South to North. Old brass shows that Afghanis used this material well before 20th century.

Thus, my cautious conclusion that this pommel had never had a lid, it was open, just like the pommels in Hamzanameh, the Brian's tulwar similar to piso podang or Jens' tulwar on pp. 350-3 in his book. If so, this might be an early pulwar handle, 17-18 cen. at the latest. Apparently, the owner thought it quite valuable for some reasons: one langet was broken and carefully shortened and reformed. The blade is likely newer than the hilt. Pics are attached

Your thoughts?

mahratt · 23rd December 2019, 08:24 PM

Why ask a question if you yourself answered this question for yourself a month ago by expressing your opinion?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25438

Message № 8.

Didn't you say that "I think the Afghani pulwar fully matured from the Deccani/ N. Indian cup-like form into a full “ pulwar one” not earlier than 17-18 century".

You are probably showing a Deccan sword, or an Afghan pulvar with a handle from Deccan (according to your own ideas)

ariel · 24th December 2019, 02:01 AM

Don’t be concerned: this sword was looked at by Robert Elgood, and in his opinion it is 100% Afghani.

I know , you do not trust opinions of recognized authorities, especially when they are “elderly”. But maybe, just maybe, you would make an exception in this particular case? :-)

mahratt · 24th December 2019, 05:18 AM

I don't need be concerned

This is not my sword. And I do not need to try to prove to anyone rarity this sword

I respect the opinion of Robert Elgood. But I think that only the psychic who sees the past can accurately state where and when the hilt of this sword was made. One can only speculate, paying attention to some signs) By the way, Robert Elgood did not tell you in which his book we will see your unique sword?

ariel · 24th December 2019, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

I respect the opinion of Robert Elgood. But I think that only the psychic who sees the past can accurately state where and when the hilt of this sword was made.

Pity you cannot carefully read and comprehend his books: that’s exactly what he does.

Well, now can I get an informed and intelligent opinion from the Forumites?

mahratt · 24th December 2019, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Pity you cannot carefully read and comprehend his books: that’s exactly what he does.

Don’t worry) It’s good enough to pay a professional translator and you can read any book that interests you. The main thing is not to be greedy

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, now can I get an informed and intelligent opinion from the Forumites?

It is strange to wait for an answer to a question that you yourself answered a month ago. Probably these are signs of age. Sclerosis?

You have not answered my question: Robert Elgood did not tell you in which his book we will see your unique sword?

23rd December 2019, 07:45 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Afghani pulwar: old and ( perhaps) revealing This is an Afghani pulwar, with a typical Afghani blade : false edge, narrow profile and very thick spine, thin fullers interrupted by flat planes and indentations filled with yellow and red lac. I suspect it is wootz because of a long " seam" or "crack" at the spine, but could not reveal it with lime juice or ferrous sulfate. But my real question is about its handle: crudely-cast brass with very deep cup-like pommel and a baluster going all the way up from the bottom and having a lanyard hole. At first blush I thought that it was a traditional Afghani pommel with a lid lost, but the lanyard hole looked to be located quite low, below the presumed lid. I placed a very thin piece of metal next to it and indeed, at least a third of the hole was below the level of the presumed lid. The rivet through the guard is distinctive though one can see this construction in Jodhpur in the 19th century examples and in the south even earlier (See Elgood's " Rajput Arms", vol. 1, p.22): the "adoption" of that feature went from South to North. Old brass shows that Afghanis used this material well before 20th century. Thus, my cautious conclusion that this pommel had never had a lid, it was open, just like the pommels in Hamzanameh, the Brian's tulwar similar to piso podang or Jens' tulwar on pp. 350-3 in his book. If so, this might be an early pulwar handle, 17-18 cen. at the latest. Apparently, the owner thought it quite valuable for some reasons: one langet was broken and carefully shortened and reformed. The blade is likely newer than the hilt. Pics are attached Your thoughts? Attached Images

23rd December 2019, 08:24 PM	#2
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Why ask a question if you yourself answered this question for yourself a month ago by expressing your opinion? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25438 Message № 8. Didn't you say that "I think the Afghani pulwar fully matured from the Deccani/ N. Indian cup-like form into a full “ pulwar one” not earlier than 17-18 century". You are probably showing a Deccan sword, or an Afghan pulvar with a handle from Deccan (according to your own ideas) Attached Images

24th December 2019, 02:01 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Don’t be concerned: this sword was looked at by Robert Elgood, and in his opinion it is 100% Afghani. I know , you do not trust opinions of recognized authorities, especially when they are “elderly”. But maybe, just maybe, you would make an exception in this particular case? :-)

24th December 2019, 05:18 AM	#4
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I don't need be concerned This is not my sword. And I do not need to try to prove to anyone rarity this sword I respect the opinion of Robert Elgood. But I think that only the psychic who sees the past can accurately state where and when the hilt of this sword was made. One can only speculate, paying attention to some signs) By the way, Robert Elgood did not tell you in which his book we will see your unique sword?