Shaolin Tai Chi Jian not Wudang, Wu Jian & Wen Jian, Taoist, Antique, Battle ready

[JoeCanada42]

some notes
Shaolin being the external art and Wudang internal
by 1980 only a handfull of shaolin monks remained
at one point shaolin monks were fighting pirates
Taoism banned in 1949

"Jian blades became more refined and more popular among martial artists and martial-arts societies beginning in the Ming Dynasty of 1368-1644 and the Qing Dynasty of 1644-1912. Most antique jian swords one sees nowadays are mid to late Qing Dynasty blades. The White Crane site says excellent swords were also made in China's Republican era until 1920 or later."

https://www.ancient-origins.net/news...n-knife-003241


"Sword Zones
The length is divided into three zones. The top third of the blade is extremely thin and razor sharp. The top third is never used for blocking because it can be notched very easily. Instead, this sharp part is used only for attack. The middle third of the blade is thicker and less sharp than the top third. This part of the blade is used for sliding, guiding away, sticking, and cutting. The bottom third of the blade is very thick and unsharpened and is generally used for situations when violent blocking is needed. The taiji martial artist attempts to keep his opponents in the middle and long range for proper use of his weapon.

A. Scholar's Sword (Wen Jian, 文劍). This sword is also called a female sword. It is long and light, with a rounded tip. It is not commonly used for war, but for self-defense and for dancing. It was also commonly carried by scholars to present an elegant appearance or was hung on a wall to decorate a room.

B. Martial Sword (Wu Jian, 武劍). This sword, also known as a male sword, is long and heavy, with a pointed tip. Be- cause of its killing potential, it was mainly used in battle.

https://ymaa.com/articles/2015/07/the-sword-structure




here are some swords I found interesting....

and a big question

has anyone else ever seen a Wu Jian side by side with a Wen Jian???

my thoughts on the swords, built for the art of fighting, not the act, these swords are more refined, specialized and can be put to greater use then a soldiers Jian, particularly when used by someone trained in the art

[JoeCanada42]

actually just found another example that is very interesting....

[JoeCanada42]

well I don't think anyone else has, so ill share, it will appease the spirits of the swords.
pictured is a sword I shared before the "red dragon"
and the center piece is my newest acquisition" the shaolin ", just arrived today from Australia.
I knew what to expect and yet.. was very happily surprised. the size of this sword was more than I expected, it is a very powerful weapon...

the seller said he bought it as a 19c weapon but is selling it as he is uncertain of the true age. I found the auction listing where this same sword sold from england 28 Dec 2022 described as 19c,, seems its just recently traveled around the world..

[JoeCanada42]

few more...

[kai]

Hello Joe,

I honestly appreciate your enthusiasm - please keep it!

some notes
Shaolin being the external art and Wudang internal
by 1980 only a handfull of shaolin monks remained
at one point shaolin monks were fighting pirates
Taoism banned in 1949

Having said that, I feel you need to validate your sources more critically: Not all information (online, printed, whatever) is of equal value. Separating the wheat (or rice) from the chaff is crucial for any real progress.

For example, one might ask oneself, when the first record of a Shaolin monastery with special fighting ability of its monks got mentioned in official gazetteers or any other imperial documents. A quote from any accepted translations will do for a start...

Or when any Taiji jian (or Taijiquan in general) practise entered the Shaolin curriculum? Or the curriculum of the Wudang crowd? Or, for that matter, which jian practise entered Taijiquan where and when?

Have fun slaying ghosts!

Actually, none of this bears much on the actual use of the jian since its early versions predate any of the extant martial arts (most codified fairly late) and jian having been in use all over China (and beyond) in many fighting styles. Certainly no need to focus on taijiquan despite its popularity (some of it well deserved, some of it not deserved).


Back to the current piece: I can't read the metal of the blade from the pics - some cleaning and light etching might allow additional insights. Please also add the weight of both pieces (without scabbard).

I believe though that you need to follow-up on the advice given by the most experienced members like Philip in your earlier thread here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26884 (IMNSHO worth re-reading till the very end).

Regards,
Kai

[JoeCanada42]

Hi Kai thanks for some input.
I did just re-read the post for the red dragon, seems the fittings and the ray skin plus+ the lacquer were giving doubts. (i think the shaolin is much better dressed)
I like Jim's post about it being a gift like tribute, I need to research more of that.
also I like the ideas of it being possibly older and yet hard to distinguish...

The main take aways I get from rereading it are Kungfu, Buddhist, Taoist, Ming.
my shaolin idea I don't know where that came from but it seemed to fit, (actually when researching shaolin swords, I also saw similar modern productions of this very similar style sword called shaolin, this made me feel more confident in making the link.)

"A quote from any accepted translations will do for a start..." I couldn't possibly provide that...

"cleaning and light etching might allow additional insights" I have never etched a blade and don't really want to start with this one.

I have imagination, not astute studious scholarly abilities such as yourself and others. I can share ideas and photos...weights etc... I come here to allow more capable, willing and interested people also to learn from it. and and as a shortcut to some info, I hope they would share.

I think my research may always seem lacking, I will never produce any threads that are exposition like as many of you do.

I am quite satisfied already with the sword and my limited knowledge of the many possible histories. the sword looks like chilled steel and has the leaping dragon, I read about how they could possibly throw these swords, this one does feel like it could cut through 10 other swords . very fluid movement despite its size, good balance point, no vibration..

sometimes I am worried people are afraid to give they're positive opinions as they don't want to help confirm a bonafide example and educate other potential buyers. I understand for swords of good old example such as ibans , they can make some members bid a little crazy or even some fall for fake handles.

experts can be wrong, there was the recent post about the museum with a replica that turned out to be the real deal.
I really hope Philip will come take a look at these new examples I am sharing

I own two and have seen 3 total with the exact same dragon carving.
someone , somewhere, sometime, may be able to identify this dragon mark and it may solve a big part of this mystery.

[JoeCanada42]

I don't like cheap militia swords of the copied type assembled with whatever cheap taichi blade or wall hanger was lying around , such as this one which had seen much better days and sold as old..
i show it ,pictured next to a true wen Jian, my red dragon could cut this one in half all day long

[JoeCanada42]

my full length wen jian, not wu jian , has a good fuller, and the integrity isn't ruined by brass dots.
here's another photo
this is a sword sold as one that people wait years and look everyday for...

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by JoeCanada42

my full length wen jian, not wu jian , has a good fuller, and the integrity isn't ruined by brass dots.
here's another photo
this is a sword sold as one that people wait years and look everyday for...

I am speechless!