Katzbalger

SimonM77 · 25th November 2022, 12:28 PM

Hi there!

I saw this picture of a Katzbalger in a Skallagrim video, and I was wondering, if any of you know the source?

I know its a long shot, but just wondering..

Thanks a bazillion!
Simon

kronckew · 25th November 2022, 01:44 PM

Saw the video on yootoob, he doesn't give ant references for the museum photos of the real weapons. You might try leaving a comment on his katzbalger video asking which museum they come from. (the ones he waves about are repros from Kult of Athena mongst others, but we do not talk about those here.

Peter Hudson · 30th November 2022, 05:29 PM

https://en.langenscheidt.com/german-...algerei#sense-

Katzbalgerei" English translation

Katzbalgerei f <Katzbalgerei; Katzbalgereien>

scrapping

squabbling, wrangling

The er ending is the sword that does the activity. Katzbalger

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

Jim McDougall · 3rd December 2022, 06:18 PM

There are various explanations for the term 'katzbalger', in which the term 'katz' seems typically of course to refer to cat, and while balger seems to refer to fight in varied senses there seems to be a version tenuously suggesting these swords were worn held by a cats skin (balg=fur).

More likely the term alludes to the 'cat fight', the vicious combat of feral cats, and the ferocity of same with warriors wielding these swords.

With this it is tempting to align the distinctive 'cats head' pommel of the schiavona, the basket hilt fighting swords associated with Croatian (Dalmatian) origins in Italy with the 'cat fight' analogy.

It is often interesting to discover the symbolic associations in weaponry and warrior image in many cultural and ethnic contexts.

The hilt of the katzbalger in the OP here strongly resembles one sold on ebay and only described as 'early Germanic' without further detail. As there are wide variations of these it is often hard to define, but most common is this 'figure eight' guard. This seems to be basis for the development of branches/arms added in other forms of this type sword.

SimonM77 · 9th December 2022, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

There are various explanations for the term 'katzbalger', in which the term 'katz' seems typically of course to refer to cat, and while balger seems to refer to fight in varied senses there seems to be a version tenuously suggesting these swords were worn held by a cats skin (balg=fur).

More likely the term alludes to the 'cat fight', the vicious combat of feral cats, and the ferocity of same with warriors wielding these swords.

With this it is tempting to align the distinctive 'cats head' pommel of the schiavona, the basket hilt fighting swords associated with Croatian (Dalmatian) origins in Italy with the 'cat fight' analogy.

It is often interesting to discover the symbolic associations in weaponry and warrior image in many cultural and ethnic contexts.

The hilt of the katzbalger in the OP here strongly resembles one sold on ebay and only described as 'early Germanic' without further detail. As there are wide variations of these it is often hard to define, but most common is this 'figure eight' guard. This seems to be basis for the development of branches/arms added in other forms of this type sword.

I also think the "Catfight" translation/analysis is the most logical, the idea of the scabbard being inlaid with, or made of, Cat Skin isnt very likely.

But the other day I was thinking... it could be a double meaning? Maybe like a pun? So it both means something with the scabbard and also "Catfight"?

Dunno!

I just never saw a Katzbalger like that before, but it resembles the Landsknecht Daggers a lot, so it makes sense.

Whats the one on ebay?

corrado26 · 9th December 2022, 03:09 PM

If you ever have seen a real catfight,you saw a very dense and narrow fight of two animals face to face when often parts of their coats are pulled out and fly through the air. This is the way cats fight normally and in German language this is a "Balgerei" - their "Balg" , (their coat) is mostly heavily damaged. This short distance of fight is the reason for the name of a Katzbalger, whose blade is really very short in comparison to other sabres and enables to be used in a very near fight.

cornelistromp · 27th December 2022, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SimonM77

Hi there!

I saw this picture of a Katzbalger in a Skallagrim video, and I was wondering, if any of you know the source?

I know its a long shot, but just wondering..

Thanks a bazillion!
Simon

please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...?t=8630&page=2

post #48

25th November 2022, 12:28 PM	#1
SimonM77 Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Posts: 21	Katzbalger Hi there! I saw this picture of a Katzbalger in a Skallagrim video, and I was wondering, if any of you know the source? I know its a long shot, but just wondering.. Thanks a bazillion! Simon Attached Images

30th November 2022, 05:29 PM	#3
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 314	The Meaning of KATZBALGER. https://en.langenscheidt.com/german-...algerei#sense- Katzbalgerei" English translation Katzbalgerei f <Katzbalgerei; Katzbalgereien> scrapping squabbling, wrangling The er ending is the sword that does the activity. Katzbalger Regards, Peter Hudson.

9th December 2022, 03:09 PM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	If you ever have seen a real catfight,you saw a very dense and narrow fight of two animals face to face when often parts of their coats are pulled out and fly through the air. This is the way cats fight normally and in German language this is a "Balgerei" - their "Balg" , (their coat) is mostly heavily damaged. This short distance of fight is the reason for the name of a Katzbalger, whose blade is really very short in comparison to other sabres and enables to be used in a very near fight. Attached Images

25th November 2022, 01:44 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	Saw the video on yootoob, he doesn't give ant references for the museum photos of the real weapons. You might try leaving a comment on his katzbalger video asking which museum they come from. (the ones he waves about are repros from Kult of Athena mongst others, but we do not talk about those here.

3rd December 2022, 06:18 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	There are various explanations for the term 'katzbalger', in which the term 'katz' seems typically of course to refer to cat, and while balger seems to refer to fight in varied senses there seems to be a version tenuously suggesting these swords were worn held by a cats skin (balg=fur). More likely the term alludes to the 'cat fight', the vicious combat of feral cats, and the ferocity of same with warriors wielding these swords. With this it is tempting to align the distinctive 'cats head' pommel of the schiavona, the basket hilt fighting swords associated with Croatian (Dalmatian) origins in Italy with the 'cat fight' analogy. It is often interesting to discover the symbolic associations in weaponry and warrior image in many cultural and ethnic contexts. The hilt of the katzbalger in the OP here strongly resembles one sold on ebay and only described as 'early Germanic' without further detail. As there are wide variations of these it is often hard to define, but most common is this 'figure eight' guard. This seems to be basis for the development of branches/arms added in other forms of this type sword. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 3rd December 2022 at 06:30 PM.