Were S. Asian weapons designed to be used together?

[shayde78]

I was flipping through my old copy of Stone's 'Construction, Decoration, Use of Arms'', and noticed the image (#1) listed below of a katar with an additional blade at a right angle to the main blade. This made me think about the design of a bichwa I own, specifically the grip.
The Indians understood ergonomics, so the very flat grip has puzzled me. The hilt is clearly designed to fit the hand around the palm, rather than the fingers. This allows the fingers to be free to grasp something else. I have toyed with the idea that the feature may have allowed archers to draw their bow, but still keep a close-quarters weapon on hand (literally!). I have not been able to find any representations of such a use, though.
However, this image in Stone made me think about how well a katar and bichwa might pair. Below are images of what I have at my disposal to test the theory that these may work well together. Indeed, the two examples pictured pair together VERY well. The thin bar of the bichwa hilt fits flat and snug against the cross bars of the katar. Amazingly, my hand seems to fit much better on the otherwise cramped katar hilt because the bichwa grip serves as a spacer so the less meaty part of my fingers are actually gripping the hilt. Also, the guard of the bichwa provides nice additional protection for wielding the katar. Altogether, they make a very comfortable and probably effective weapons system.
I'd love to hear from others who have access to additional forms of these two types to see if they agree with this assessment. Apologies if this has been discussed already, but I was unable to find a similar thread.

[ariel]

They were not designed for a combined use: they just happened to employ a similar engineering principle that was peculiar to the locality. Bichhwa was originally an improvised , low-class weapon: a cow horn with a longitudinal slit in the wider end. It always had a shady reputation:-)
The “paired” weapons usually included a long -bladed one in the dominant arm and a short-bladed one in the other one ( recall european Maine Gauche) that served as an analog of a shield and was very useful in close contact. Two short ones make very little practical sense.

IMHO.

[Kubur]

I think it's the other way round.
Your first example is a combinaison of 2 weapons.
Like some Indian axes with matchlocks.

[ariel]

Some katars had additional side “wing-like” blades. But this not the case with the above example. One can hold simple katars and bichhwas together in one hand, but they were not intended for that purpose.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The question is about multiple weapon use..for which there is no set answer since they used what they had ..but thinking through the idea that arms workshops had been building up the weaponry available for a long time before any big battle... and warriors went in with quite a few arms about them... as in the picture below they were mob handed when it came to selection of weaponry. In addition several sword types could be on their choice list as well as Quoits firearms daggers... or they could use one main weapon and a variety of others...or any combination. Weapons use depended on the flowing situation and could involve sword and Katar as in the black and white sketch of the Maharathas below...or in the case of cavalry switching lance for bow then sword or dagger ....Very much horses for courses... and no holds barred.

[Roland_M]

Hello,

if you hold both of the blades, your forearm is not longer perfectly aligned with the Katar. This means, you will either hurt your wrist or you make the katar quite useless.


Roland

[Battara]

I've been watching and reading this thread. I guess it is possible, but Roland brings up a good point. I want to add to his argument with the force of impact.

If the grip is not tight then the force of impact can either make the weapon ineffective at best or at worst cripple the hand or arm. If struck at right angles, the other weapon can become a liability.

Now if both weapons or blades are integrated into one single strong piece, then these issues are lessoned.

[shayde78]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hello,

if you hold both of the blades, your forearm is not longer perfectly aligned with the Katar. This means, you will either hurt your wrist or you make the katar quite useless.


Roland

Thank you everyone for your thoughts on this question so far. I appreciate the dialogue.

Roland and Battara,

You make good points, and surely the ergonomics must be considered. However, the bichwa's design is to fit below the fingers and around the palm, leaving the fingers free. With the hilt of the example pictured, it marries nicely against the cross bars of the katar. The alignment for the thrust is not affected, and may even be improved (granted, that could just be a function of my larger hands). I've added some more pics to show better angles of how the simultaneous grasping doesn't seem to impede the ability to wield and engage either weapon.

Also, since posting this, it occurred to me that the allusion to a scorpion's stinger is strengthened when hold these weapons together in this configuration. I know I have never seen this suggested before, so I get that my suggestion is probably a bit far fetched, but I'd still love to see more examples put together in such a manner to see if they generally pair so well, or are my two examples just strangely well suited to one another. Heck, I met my wife and she is tolerates me well enough, so I guess anything is possible!

[Mercenary]

Very interesting. But in reality used only tulvar and shield without any fantasies and such modern perversions

[Roland_M]

Two knifes in one hand might be unusual. One needs full control over both blades with one hand. If this is given, why not.

But I think a combination of a light and long knife and a small shield truly make sense. This would turn the shield hand into a powerfull weapon.
And here is the possible combination. The blade measures 37 cm (49 cm total) and weighs only 316 grams.

At least there are existing examples of renaissance Italian shield-sword combinations with multiple blades fixed on the shield.


Roland

[ariel]

And not only Italian.
Closer to the topic, see shields with built-in blades of the North-East Indian Santal tribe.
I am with Battara and Roland.

[Mercenary]

Now we need to take an Indian fist shield as it kept actually (not like in the picture), take a chilanum or a straight katari (the usual weapons of the Indian warriors instead of peshkabz) and get on it a nice blow of heavy sword. It will be interesting. Also we can still read the memories of British and French officers of the 18th and 19th centuries and learn what kind of weapons and in what ways were used by Indians in real battles

[MitsuWa.]

Your pictures seem to further illustrate the misalignment of the Katar to your forearm with the Bitchwa crossing over the side bars like that? If you are comfortable doing so I wonder what would happen if you were to punch a solid target with your Katar, besides being misaligned looks like a possibility of a couple of bruised middle fingers at the very least the way your hand is crowded against the base of the blade with that grip.

Originally Posted by shayde78

Thank you everyone for your thoughts on this question so far. I appreciate the dialogue.

Roland and Battara,

You make good points, and surely the ergonomics must be considered. However, the bichwa's design is to fit below the fingers and around the palm, leaving the fingers free. With the hilt of the example pictured, it marries nicely against the cross bars of the katar. The alignment for the thrust is not affected, and may even be improved (granted, that could just be a function of my larger hands). I've added some more pics to show better angles of how the simultaneous grasping doesn't seem to impede the ability to wield and engage either weapon.

Also, since posting this, it occurred to me that the allusion to a scorpion's stinger is strengthened when hold these weapons together in this configuration. I know I have never seen this suggested before, so I get that my suggestion is probably a bit far fetched, but I'd still love to see more examples put together in such a manner to see if they generally pair so well, or are my two examples just strangely well suited to one another. Heck, I met my wife and she is tolerates me well enough, so I guess anything is possible!

[shastardhari]

Yes many weapons are meant to be used in conjunction with each other. Pesh kabz katar. Small shield katar and short sword left hand, big sword in right. Bichwa and katar with a long axe/staff. Khanda katar in one hand. Katar bicwa in another.