Arabo-Ottoman sword

Belgian1 · 14th August 2015, 12:33 PM

Hello to all members.

Can you help me to learn more about this "nice" saber that i've find 1 month weeks ago in a flea market in " La Louvière / Belgium ".
The flexible blade is marked (European mark may be). The handle appears to be rhino horn and silver. Traces of red lacquer in the etched silver patterns. the scabbard is in wood covered with skin. I seem to be in good condition. The rope is faded but it was red and blue.
93 cm long for all
68,8 cm long for the blade

Thank you for your help and see you soon
Fabrice

Ian · 14th August 2015, 07:09 PM

Belgian1:

Welcome to the Forum.

That is a nice looking nimcha that you have shown--a nice find at a flea market.

Would you also post a picture of the complete sword outside of the scabbard. That will help the experts on this Forum to better identify its origins and style.

Ian.

Kubur · 14th August 2015, 07:32 PM

Hi Fabrice
It's a very beautiful so-called sword from Zanzibar...
Really cool
Best,
Kubur

kahnjar1 · 14th August 2015, 09:08 PM

Hi Fabrice, and welcome to the Forum.
A VERY nice NIMCHA sword. Not necessarily from Zanzibar. The so called "Zanzibar" Nimcha usually has a D shaped "guard" as shown here.
Stu

Battara · 14th August 2015, 09:53 PM

I was thinking your wonderful example comes from Morocco.

Kubur · 14th August 2015, 10:45 PM

Arab / Zanzibar
You have two kind of guards with ring or the Persian style.
More important are the grip and scabbard...
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=zanzibar

Gavin Nugent · 15th August 2015, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I was thinking your wonderful example comes from Morocco.

I too believe this is from the northern African Coast through to Tunisia.

The variation of the hilt shape, the type of quillons and the presence of coral all point to Tunisia for me.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...23&postcount=1

Gavin

Belgian1 · 14th August 2015, 09:13 PM

Hello to all, from Belgium :-)

I hope that this pictures can help you

Merci beaucoup Ian and Kubur :-)

Miguel · 15th August 2015, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belgian1

Hello to all members.

Can you help me to learn more about this "nice" saber that i've find 1 month weeks ago in a flea market in " La Louvière / Belgium ".
The flexible blade is marked (European mark may be). The handle appears to be rhino horn and silver. Traces of red lacquer in the etched silver patterns. the scabbard is in wood covered with skin. I seem to be in good condition. The rope is faded but it was red and blue.
93 cm long for all
68,8 cm long for the blade

Thank you for your help and see you soon
Fabrice

Hi Belgian
Wellcome Great item I am most envious. I have a Kaskara with what looks like the same makers mark that is on the blade of your Nimcha. I have been trying to discover who used this mark without success to date. There are some that are close but not quite the same, I wonder if any of the forum members can help in identifying it ? Thanks for sharing it with us.
Regards
Miguel

broadaxe · 15th August 2015, 11:36 PM

North African, possibely Algeria or Tunisia. Note a similar one (fitted with an earlier cutlass blade, and a plain guard), from the captured weapon section in the Palace Armoury of Malta.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th August 2015, 06:08 PM

Salaams all, The question sometimes arises where is this sword from ...and to answer that Kubur illustrates a great reference...see #7 of http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...hlight=zanzibar The decoration to the African Comb and that of the Hilt are very similar...pointing to Zanzibar as the point of decoration.

For BUTINS CHART view #26 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...zanzibar+yemen

Butin indicates that not all Zanzibari hilts had the D guard ...but that when a D guard appears it can be assumed that it is Zanzibari....Readers should see Butins chart at my reference above as there are many Zanzibari varieties and close cousins including Saudia and Yemeni variants.

Having said that there are obvious indicators of North African in the project sword ...The Cord and the coral indicate that region ...and the examples of the Maltese Museum are well received.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Belgian1 · 17th August 2015, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all, The question sometimes arises where is this sword from ...and to answer that Kubur illustrates a great reference...see #7 of http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...hlight=zanzibar The decoration to the African Comb and that of the Hilt are very similar...pointing to Zanzibar as the point of decoration.

For BUTINS CHART view #26 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...zanzibar+yemen

Butin indicates that not all Zanzibari hilts had the D guard ...but that when a D guard appears it can be assumed that it is Zanzibari....Readers should see Butins chart at my reference above as there are many Zanzibari varieties and close cousins including Saudia and Yemeni variants.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Good morning Mr al Balooshi.
Thank you to send me back to the Buttin illustration which I think recognizing the No. 1004 with its similar scabbard.
Thank you again for your intervention.
See you soon
Fabrice

Jim McDougall · 19th August 2015, 08:56 PM

Actually these fascinating sabres with this characteristic type hilt and the guard system with downturned quillons are of an apparently broadly represented form which are from 'Arab' regions and cannot be classified to a specific one aside from based on individual merits of each example.

The plates in Buttin (1933) illustrate numerous examples of this spectrum of examples of these sabres, which are invariably captioned as Arab swords, sa'if, by him in his text. He has identified them with date ranges as early as end of 16th century and through 18th, but no specific identification toward a 'Zanzibar' attribution is made, and particularly not with reference to the noted 'ring' projection from the guard. This in my opinion is a European influenced element which appears to have derived from developing rapier guards in Italy, and has been added to the guard system which had already evolved from other Italian forms earlier (16th century as noted) .

In my opinion, the 'Zanzibar' attribution derived from probable misassociation from individuals who read text in the Buttin reference regarding actually items numbered 1032 and 1033 (plate XXXI). These were pogniards which had been classified in error by Burton (1884) to Zanzibar, following an earlier error by Demmin (1877). In actuality these were s'boula daggers from Morocco (as well known by Buttin from his many years there), and he well footnoted detail in his 1933 catalog. Unfortunately this detail toward the 'Zanzibar' issue with these daggers was footnoted on the same page as sa'if #1034 (plate XXXI) which coincidentally HAD the noted ring on the guard.....and directly below the text.

While such a simple and unfortunate proximity error could result in such a broadly noted assumption seems almost bizarre, but as can be seen, this is how arms lore becomes legion.

I think Ibrahiim well illustrated how one example with apparently distinct decorative motif can isolate in degree, and by singular merit, at least one of these sabres to likely Zanzibar provenance by using the comb's motif compared to the grip on the example.

As far as the broader spectrum of these hilts, I think that the Arab denominator and sa'if works best, and that examples should be classified based on specific qualifiers such as motif or any other distinguishing elements attributable to certain areas or cultures.

With note to the related etymological dispute over the term 'nimcha' which has become standard collectors nomenclature for these sabres as Moroccan, this has been well explained by Louis-Pierre some years ago as a dialectic variation essentially meaning 'small' or 'half' sword. This apparently may have come from, once again, association with the shorter, flared tip examples with these kinds of hilts (993.994.995, plate XXX) which were indeed of cutlass form, but are classified only as Arabian sa'if. While it is tempting of course to associate these with nautical weapons by the size and form of blade, this can only be a presumption unless otherwise proven (such as examples from Malta shown by Broadaxe in #16, which are of course likely from maritime use).

The 'dragonhead' terminals are traditionally regarded as of Ottoman influence. As noted the cord is typically associated with North African mounting affectation (i.e koummya and others).
The mark at blade forte seems to be more of a 'chop' mark which may emulate the well known European 'twig' type marks often seen on Italian and Styrian blades.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th August 2015, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belgian1

Hello to all members.

Can you help me to learn more about this "nice" saber that i've find 1 month weeks ago in a flea market in " La Louvière / Belgium ".
The flexible blade is marked (European mark may be). The handle appears to be rhino horn and silver. Traces of red lacquer in the etched silver patterns. the scabbard is in wood covered with skin. I seem to be in good condition. The rope is faded but it was red and blue.
93 cm long for all
68,8 cm long for the blade

Thank you for your help and see you soon
Fabrice

Salaams Belgian 1 The mark on the blade... Oddly enough this is a very similar mark to the Omani Emblem but is in my opinion not related at all...since it is ...I believe ....the fly mark (or twig mark) seen on European blades and seen at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=anthony+North

I recall this mark being attributable to Peter Cull... Wheres Jim?.... although a lot of marks were also copied or used by a lot of different craftsmen ..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th August 2015, 04:09 PM

For interest see http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ul...8;t=008949;p=1 for further examples of the Moroccan/North African weapon for comparison...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st August 2015, 11:30 PM

See Library for another important linkage on these weapons at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=noth The details on Nimcha cuts in at #57 but there are important other associated details all over that thread...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd September 2015, 10:40 AM

The Nimcha style was certainly popular ..Here is Tobias Blose from Islamic Arms by the late Anthony North. Blose was an officer in the Trained Bands Of London ..

sirupate · 2nd September 2015, 07:36 PM

Lovely sword Belgian, and fabulous info everyone

14th August 2015, 09:08 PM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Welcome Hi Fabrice, and welcome to the Forum. A VERY nice NIMCHA sword. Not necessarily from Zanzibar. The so called "Zanzibar" Nimcha usually has a D shaped "guard" as shown here. Stu Attached Images

14th August 2015, 09:13 PM	#8
Belgian1 Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Belgium Posts: 52	Arabo-Ottoman sword Hello to all, from Belgium :-) I hope that this pictures can help you Merci beaucoup Ian and Kubur :-) Attached Images

16th August 2015, 06:08 PM	#11
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all, The question sometimes arises where is this sword from ...and to answer that Kubur illustrates a great reference...see #7 of http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...hlight=zanzibar The decoration to the African Comb and that of the Hilt are very similar...pointing to Zanzibar as the point of decoration. For BUTINS CHART view #26 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...zanzibar+yemen Butin indicates that not all Zanzibari hilts had the D guard ...but that when a D guard appears it can be assumed that it is Zanzibari....Readers should see Butins chart at my reference above as there are many Zanzibari varieties and close cousins including Saudia and Yemeni variants. Having said that there are obvious indicators of North African in the project sword ...The Cord and the coral indicate that region ...and the examples of the Maltese Museum are well received. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 17th August 2015 at 12:56 PM.

19th August 2015, 08:56 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Actually these fascinating sabres with this characteristic type hilt and the guard system with downturned quillons are of an apparently broadly represented form which are from 'Arab' regions and cannot be classified to a specific one aside from based on individual merits of each example. The plates in Buttin (1933) illustrate numerous examples of this spectrum of examples of these sabres, which are invariably captioned as Arab swords, sa'if, by him in his text. He has identified them with date ranges as early as end of 16th century and through 18th, but no specific identification toward a 'Zanzibar' attribution is made, and particularly not with reference to the noted 'ring' projection from the guard. This in my opinion is a European influenced element which appears to have derived from developing rapier guards in Italy, and has been added to the guard system which had already evolved from other Italian forms earlier (16th century as noted) . In my opinion, the 'Zanzibar' attribution derived from probable misassociation from individuals who read text in the Buttin reference regarding actually items numbered 1032 and 1033 (plate XXXI). These were pogniards which had been classified in error by Burton (1884) to Zanzibar, following an earlier error by Demmin (1877). In actuality these were s'boula daggers from Morocco (as well known by Buttin from his many years there), and he well footnoted detail in his 1933 catalog. Unfortunately this detail toward the 'Zanzibar' issue with these daggers was footnoted on the same page as sa'if #1034 (plate XXXI) which coincidentally HAD the noted ring on the guard.....and directly below the text. While such a simple and unfortunate proximity error could result in such a broadly noted assumption seems almost bizarre, but as can be seen, this is how arms lore becomes legion. I think Ibrahiim well illustrated how one example with apparently distinct decorative motif can isolate in degree, and by singular merit, at least one of these sabres to likely Zanzibar provenance by using the comb's motif compared to the grip on the example. As far as the broader spectrum of these hilts, I think that the Arab denominator and sa'if works best, and that examples should be classified based on specific qualifiers such as motif or any other distinguishing elements attributable to certain areas or cultures. With note to the related etymological dispute over the term 'nimcha' which has become standard collectors nomenclature for these sabres as Moroccan, this has been well explained by Louis-Pierre some years ago as a dialectic variation essentially meaning 'small' or 'half' sword. This apparently may have come from, once again, association with the shorter, flared tip examples with these kinds of hilts (993.994.995, plate XXX) which were indeed of cutlass form, but are classified only as Arabian sa'if. While it is tempting of course to associate these with nautical weapons by the size and form of blade, this can only be a presumption unless otherwise proven (such as examples from Malta shown by Broadaxe in #16, which are of course likely from maritime use). The 'dragonhead' terminals are traditionally regarded as of Ottoman influence. As noted the cord is typically associated with North African mounting affectation (i.e koummya and others). The mark at blade forte seems to be more of a 'chop' mark which may emulate the well known European 'twig' type marks often seen on Italian and Styrian blades. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th August 2015 at 09:06 PM.

2nd September 2015, 10:40 AM	#17
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The Nimcha style was certainly popular ..Here is Tobias Blose from Islamic Arms by the late Anthony North. Blose was an officer in the Trained Bands Of London .. Attached Images

14th August 2015, 12:33 PM	#1
Belgian1 Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Belgium Posts: 52	Arabo-Ottoman sword Hello to all members. Can you help me to learn more about this "nice" saber that i've find 1 month weeks ago in a flea market in " La Louvière / Belgium ". The flexible blade is marked (European mark may be). The handle appears to be rhino horn and silver. Traces of red lacquer in the etched silver patterns. the scabbard is in wood covered with skin. I seem to be in good condition. The rope is faded but it was red and blue. 93 cm long for all 68,8 cm long for the blade Thank you for your help and see you soon Fabrice Attached Images

14th August 2015, 07:09 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Good find Belgian1: Welcome to the Forum. That is a nice looking nimcha that you have shown--a nice find at a flea market. Would you also post a picture of the complete sword outside of the scabbard. That will help the experts on this Forum to better identify its origins and style. Ian.

14th August 2015, 07:32 PM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Fabrice It's a very beautiful so-called sword from Zanzibar... Really cool Best, Kubur

14th August 2015, 09:53 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	I was thinking your wonderful example comes from Morocco.

14th August 2015, 10:45 PM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Arab / Zanzibar You have two kind of guards with ring or the Persian style. More important are the grip and scabbard... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=zanzibar

15th August 2015, 11:36 PM	#10
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	North African, possibely Algeria or Tunisia. Note a similar one (fitted with an earlier cutlass blade, and a plain guard), from the captured weapon section in the Palace Armoury of Malta. Attached Images

30th August 2015, 04:09 PM	#15
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	For interest see http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ul...8;t=008949;p=1 for further examples of the Moroccan/North African weapon for comparison...

31st August 2015, 11:30 PM	#16
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	See Library for another important linkage on these weapons at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=noth The details on Nimcha cuts in at #57 but there are important other associated details all over that thread... Attached Images

2nd September 2015, 07:36 PM	#18
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Lovely sword Belgian, and fabulous info everyone