Another sword; another challenge

fernando · 27th November 2023, 09:00 PM

Doesn't the hilt look Spanish ... Boca de Caballo and all ? Doesn't the punzon on the blade ricasso look Spanish, or at least in the Spanish (Toledo) fashion ? Yet it doesn't come in Palomares nomina. As it might have a different origin. Could it be a composite ? That decoration on the blade; what could it represent ? The pommel is the screwing type.
It would be so nice to have some comments on this one.

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Radboud · 27th November 2023, 10:32 PM

Do you have a close-up of the thread on the tang? Looks quite fine and precise in the image shown.

Jim McDougall · 28th November 2023, 02:48 AM

This is a total anomaly, and in risking a totally speculative assessment, the thing I think of is a Spanish 'pappenheimer' type weapon with saber blade which seems to be perhaps Styrian or S.German (by the fullering, decoration). This would be of course mid 17th c. contemporary with Pappenheimers as well as Spanish cup hilts, shell guards (margarite).

Perhaps this might have some connection to Spanish Netherlands ? (1556-1714).

The punzone on the tang does not appear in Palomares*, but is Spanish in manner. In Kinman ("European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks", 2015), p.142, a similar mark with C under crown in dotted cartouche is shown as Zamorane el Toledano, noted pre-1700.

This mark is the crowned C, but with what seems an S (?) enclosed. This could be a spurious 'Toledo' mark as used of course in Germany (Solingen and Munich) and this blade seems 18th c. .

In Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962) there are numerous cases of older hilts mounted with later blades, so these kinds of pairings are far from unknown.
I have a 1750-60s British basket hilt which was infantry used, but in 1783 they stopped carrying swords. The swords went into stores.
At some point later my example was refitted from the straight blade to a M1788 light cavalry saber blade....I have seen two others with this modification. It is hard to say what would prompt these changes, but personal favor or heirloom hilt to a more contemporary blade would seem plausible.

* corrected, the mark does appear in Palomares #94

Interested Party · 28th November 2023, 02:59 AM

Palomares nomina? What is the complete name for this work?

fernando · 28th November 2023, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Palomares nomina? What is the complete name for this work?

Herewith his chart on marks and names. I will send you two PDF's on Palomares (father and son) by email.

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fernando · 28th November 2023, 11:19 AM

Jim, thank you so much for your previous input

. I will duly process it myself and after pass word to the sword owner.
Zamorane el Toledano also appears in Palomares but, as you say, not properly the same thing.

27th November 2023, 09:00 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Another sword; another challenge Doesn't the hilt look Spanish ... Boca de Caballo and all ? Doesn't the punzon on the blade ricasso look Spanish, or at least in the Spanish (Toledo) fashion ? Yet it doesn't come in Palomares nomina. As it might have a different origin. Could it be a composite ? That decoration on the blade; what could it represent ? The pommel is the screwing type. It would be so nice to have some comments on this one. . Attached Images

28th November 2023, 02:48 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	This is a total anomaly, and in risking a totally speculative assessment, the thing I think of is a Spanish 'pappenheimer' type weapon with saber blade which seems to be perhaps Styrian or S.German (by the fullering, decoration). This would be of course mid 17th c. contemporary with Pappenheimers as well as Spanish cup hilts, shell guards (margarite). Perhaps this might have some connection to Spanish Netherlands ? (1556-1714). The punzone on the tang does not appear in Palomares, but is Spanish in manner. In Kinman ("European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks", 2015), p.142, a similar mark with C under crown in dotted cartouche is shown as Zamorane el Toledano, noted pre-1700. This mark is the crowned C, but with what seems an S (?) enclosed. This could be a spurious 'Toledo' mark as used of course in Germany (Solingen and Munich) and this blade seems 18th c. . In Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962) there are numerous cases of older hilts mounted with later blades, so these kinds of pairings are far from unknown. I have a 1750-60s British basket hilt which was infantry used, but in 1783 they stopped carrying swords. The swords went into stores. At some point later my example was refitted from the straight blade to a M1788 light cavalry saber blade....I have seen two others with this modification. It is hard to say what would prompt these changes, but personal favor or heirloom hilt to a more contemporary blade would seem plausible. corrected, the mark does appear in Palomares #94 Last edited by Jim McDougall; 28th November 2023 at 02:26 PM.

27th November 2023, 10:32 PM	#2
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 261	Do you have a close-up of the thread on the tang? Looks quite fine and precise in the image shown.

28th November 2023, 02:59 AM	#4
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 466	Palomares nomina? What is the complete name for this work?

28th November 2023, 11:19 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Jim, thank you so much for your previous input . I will duly process it myself and after pass word to the sword owner. Zamorane el Toledano also appears in Palomares but, as you say, not properly the same thing.