The Knife, Sacrifice and Meaning

[Tim Simmons]

In the light of the new Mel Gibson film, which I hope to get round to seeing, and more recent threads. I thought this title might be worth exploring. Members may have much more active understanding of such practises. I am interested in the knives used. The taking of another life has great meaning and yet many of the knives just seem to be a tool. As we know this is not always the case, take the elaborate flint knives used in the Middle Americas or the Ram Doa {if that is the correct spelling} on the Indian subcontinent. We all have different resources and references. Is head taking a form of sacrifice, not just an act of warfare or one and the same? I feel sure we could have the making of a classic thread.
I will start with this cropped picture from "Soul Of Africa, Magical Rites and Traditions" an inexpensive but fascinating book with some hair raising photography. In this picture the knife looks very ordinary but that does not mean it is not special? This child in Benin is protected from spiritual harm which could manifest itself as illness such as smallpox, in a white chalk circle. He is also sitting on an upturned ceramic "healing" pot. As the blood pours over the child evil and harm is drained away with the blood. So here goes.

[Emanuel]

Hi Tim,
I've been reading about head taking in Montenegro, and it seems that in that case it was a form of warfare with some overtones of sacrifice. To them the practice was undertaken to affect the future life of the killed individuals. I understand they saw head-taking as reducing the present as well as future numbers of the ennemy, perhaps with the thought that a decapitated soul would not be reborn into future generations of fighters. There are also ballads of groups taking many heads and presenting them to the local prince or even of placing them in the towers of the local monastery. A regular fighting knife was used. In cultures that use the Ram Dao, I think the act of head-taking is purely ceremonial and undertaken in a controlled setting. The Montenegrans fought and then took heads. It's interesting that Christians would do this...perhaps a practice harkening to pre-Christian traditions.

Now looking at the Dayak, their mandaus were also fighting weapons no? They didn't need a specific ceremonial weapon for decapitation since their head-taking was done in battle. Also interesting that they did it in order to bolster their own tribe with fighting souls, not necessarily to reduce the fighting capabilities of the ennemy.
So I think that cultures developed sacrificial knives and weapons when the sacrifice was done in controlled settings. That way the whole mistery of the ceremony could be imbued into the tool used as a sacred symbol.

[VANDOO]

MEL GIBSONS MOVIE IS A GOOD STORY AND VERY INTERESTING, IT HAS SOME SPECTACULAR COSTUMES AND SETS. IT DWELLS MOSTLY ON THE MOST SAVAGE ASPECTS OF AZTEC SOCIETY AND AS A RESULT IS VERY VIOLENT AND BLOODY. THE PART WHERE THE HEADS WERE REMOVED AND ROLLED DOWN THE STAIRS MIGHT BE FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISORIENTING THE SPIRIT SO IT WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CAUSE TROUBLE FOR THE TRIBE OR CITY.A SIMULAR PRACTICE IN AFRICA CAUSED THE HEAD TO BE HURLED THRU THE AIR BY A SAPELING FOR THE SAME REASON. THE HEADS WERE PLACED IN VERY LARGE SKULL RACKS HOLDING HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS. ROLLING THE BODIES DOWN THE LONG STAIRS MIGHT HAVE HELPED TENDERIZE THEM FOR DINNER. CORTEZ RECORDS THE LARGE SKULL RACKS HE SAW AND WAS VERY IMPRESSED. SKULL RACKS WERE ALSO USED IN NEW GUINEA BUT WERE NEVER AS LARGE. THE BODIES WERE EATEN IN BOTH SOCIETYS.

CEREMONIAL REGALIA AND SACRIFICIAL KNIVES WOULD HAVE BEEN THE PROPERTY OF THE PRIESTS OR PERHAPS THE RULER. I SUSPECT COMMON PEOPLE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO TOUCH THEM UNDER SEVERE PENALTY. AZTEC WARRIORS HAD THEIR FAVORITE WEAPONS AND SOME OBJECTS AND UNIFORM INDICATING THEIR CLAN,TOTUM AND STATUS AS A WARRIOR. THE ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS OF THE AMERICAS WERE VERY COLORFUL AND ARTISTIC EVEN IN THEIR MORE COMMON CRAFTS SO THE WORKMANSHIP ON RARE OR SACRED OBJECTS WAS EXCEPTIONAL.

THE IDEA OF SACRIFICE IS A PRIMATIVE ONE, IT BASICALY IS MAN TRYING TO TRADE SOMETHING TO NATURE (THE GODS) FOR WHAT THE SOCIETY OR TRIBE WANTS OR NEEDS. GOOD CROPS, HUNTING, RAIN, TO KEEP SICKNESS FROM THE VILLAGE OR TO INSTALL A SPIRIT TO GAURD A BUILDING, WAR CANOE ECT. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING MAN COULD THINK OF WAS OFTEN A HUMAN LIFE PERHAPS A SLAVE OR ENEMY BUT IF THE NEED WAS VERY GREAT A FAMILY MEMBER OR EVEN A KING. FORTUNATELY THAT DARK ASPECT OF MANKIND IS MOSTLY IN OUR PAST AND OFFERINGS USUALLY CONSIST OF THE BOUNTY OF THE EARTH IN THE FORM OF FOOD ,JEWELS ,GOLD, AND OTHER GOODS. WHILE SOME ANIMALS ARE STILL SACRIFICED AS THE TRADITIONS OF THE SOCIETY STILL REQUIRE IT, IT IS MORE RARE THESE DAYS. I JUST GIVE THANKS OR ASK FOR THESE THINGS IN PRAYER AND HAVE FAITH THAT IS ENOUGH AS THAT IS MY FAMILY AND SOCIETYS TRADITION.

[Montino Bourbon]

The movie was (supposedly) about the Maya, who were a lot less bloodthirsty than the Aztecs, according to the current view of history. Gibson has been criticized for playing fast and loose with facts, and I believe that his critics are right.

Certainly his movie "The passion of the Christ" should give pause to certain imperial wanna-be regimes who fancy themselves "bringers of democracy" to "Middle-Eastern" people. I'm a Roman, born in Rome, and I am so happy that Rome got over her imperial ambitions (through hard experience) and is now a normal, civilized country. I also happen to be an american citizen and veteran, by the way.

Rome had blood sacrifice, although not usually human. There was a very well-established protocol for doing that, with professionals officiating.

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

Rome had blood sacrifice, although not usually human. There was a very well-established protocol for doing that, with professionals officiating.

Ah, but you're forgetting that the great games evolved out of funeral rites, and the deaths engendered by them were considered, at least initially, as a form of sacrifice. Later it devolved into simple bloodsport as the masses became addicted to the spectacle, but the foundation of the practice was religious in nature.

The collecting of heads as trophies/religious objects is one of the oldest in human nature; examples have been found in paleolithic sites dating back 30,000 years where bear skulls were set up in a ceremonial nature, and some form of sacrifice, whether ritual or actual, is part of virtually every religion known to man, even Christianity.

As for the significance of specific weapons being used for sacrificial purposes as opposed to picking up whatever's handy, I imagine it's an evolving situation. No doubt the first Aztec priests to practice human sacrifice used whatever blade was handy; as the practice evolved and the society changed specific blades would have become part of the priest's regalia, imbued with significance and power by their repeated use in ritual.

In my own faith it is tradition that for a person to pass into Valhalla they must die with a sword in their hand (how much of that is true and how much is Hollywood is subject to debate). Originally of course the belief was that warriors were chosen on the battlefield by the Valkyrie to join the Einherjar, the army waiting to fight with the Aesir at Ragnarok, the Norse version of the Apocalypse. These days the average person doesn't have much chance to fall in battle with a sword in their hand, so the practice has evolved that, when possible, the knidred will make sure that one of their brethren has a sword physically in their hands, or at least in their presence, when they pass away, our version of last rites.

I currently have hanging on my wall such a sword that was in my best friend's hands when he passed away. Prior to his death it wasn't anything special as such swords go; it was hand forged by a smith who makes a living making swords, but it was no different than a hundred other such swords he's made. Afterwards I commissioned the same smith to make it into a memorial sword, with brasswork and runes to indicate its history. In the future it may be used again as a ritual blade, but it will never again be 'just another' sword.

Fenris

[Emanuel]

Hello Fenris (Thor must've been quite angry at your namesake )

Interesting what you say about your last rites, I didn't know such traditions were still alive, and I'm glad they are. For us (Romanian Orthodox) we hold that one mus not die without having a lit candle in hand or close by...to light the way for the soul perhaps, but it's seen as an unfortunate thing if one dies without a candle.

About your sword obtaining a ritual significance, I have a small anecdote first recounted by a researcher oh some human psychology...when making meatloaf for the family, she had the constant practice of cutting the ends of the piece of meat when she put it in the oven; her mother had done it and so had her grandmother...why? There was no reason to do it, but the family felt that the roast was somehow better if she did cut the ends off. After some research, she uncovered that her great-great grandmother had started cutting the ends of the roast because it didn't fit in the pan! The anecdote is to illustrate that original cause or intent may be lost with each subsequent generation. The Aztec priest may have used a knife simply because it was useful, but each new generation of priest may have have had a new perception of it stemming from lack of understanding or from desire for something greater.
Regards,
Emanuel

[Tim Simmons]

In Julian Jaacobs "The Nagas" there is mention that heads were not always won/taken in a war situation and opportunities were not always ever present. If I have understood, he suggests the spiritual need to take a head could biuld up and as a consequence the first hapless stranger could loss there head and power/stability would return to the community. The individual taking the head gets great prestige but other warriors would blood thier doa and receive some prestige. This, if not a formal ceremony does have elements akin to some sort shared communion. The fact that only one head could be effective and give prestige to the many does seem like a sacrificial act. It would appear that standard arms were used but became more special after the act or having been blooded.

Does anyone have a good Ram Doa?

[VANDOO]

THE MAYA WERE NOT THE ONES WHO MET THE FIRST EUROPEANS IN MEXICO IT WAS THE AZTECK BUT AFTER ALL IT IS ONLY A MOVIE SO ARTISTIC LISENCE IS ALLOWED.

THE LARGE SOCIETYS IN MID AND SOUTH AMERICA NEVER DOMESTICATED ANY LARGE ANIMALS AND THOSE THAT WERE THERE WERE HUNTED TO EXTINTION THE GIANT SLOTH BEING ONLY ONE EXAMPLE. THE TAPIER SURVIVED BECAUSE IT LIVED IN DEEP JUNGLE AND WAS SOLITARY AND VERY WARY AND FEW AND FAR IN BETWEEN IN THOSE TIMES. THE SOCIETY RELIED MOSTLY ON FARMING FOR ITS FOOD SUPPLEMENTED BY HUNTING AND FISHING. WHEN THE FAMINE SET IN BECAUSE OF CROP FAILURE THEY CAME TO RELY ON THE ONLY LARGE ANIMAL FOUND IN ABUNDANCE AS A FOOD SOURCE (MAN). THIS HAS HAPPENED IN OTHER TIMES AND COUNTRYS THRUOUT HISTORY AND SOMETIMES AS WITH THE AZTEC SACRIFICE TO THE GODS PLAYED A PART IN MAKEING IT ACCEPTABLE TO THE SOCIETY. UNFORTUNATELY I DON'T HAVE ANY PICTURES OF SACRIFICAL KNIVES ON THE COMPUTER AND NO SCANNER. BUT DO HAVE A FEW PICTURES I WILL SEE IF I CAN SHARE OF OTHER WEAPONS. A MOCHE COPPER MACE

[VANDOO]

AS USUAL MOST OF MY PICTURES DID NOT MAKE IT FOR SOME UNKNOWN REASON. I WILL TRY AGAIN. FOOIE! I CAN ONLY GET ONE MORE TO COME THRU IT IS A INCA STONE MACE HEAD.

[Tim Simmons]

The copper mace is a most remarkable object however it was used. This picture of an aztec ceremonial knife was very graciously lent to the Royal Academy London for the exhibition "Aztecs" a few years ago by the Museo National de Antropologia Mexico City. The British Museum also has a spectacular example covered in turquoise and other stones but I prefer this example. Acts of cannibalism could be straying a little off subject but it is still worth mentioning. Ritual cannibalism has been found quite far into present day USA. I have not read anything to suggest cannibalism as a supplement to the staple diet in the Americas. I have not read that the sacrifices in the Aztec empire were in any way linked to sustenance except in a spiritual manner for the priesthood. It seems to have been worldwide historically. Even in fairly modern times in the South Pacific I am not sure there is strong evidence that cannabalism was like pork chop night at the Simpsons . However the practise has produced many of the worlds most outstanding art. IMHO

[Emanuel]

Fantastic dagger Tim,
Would that be a deity figure on the hilt, in the manner of the Tibetan phurpa? I find it interesting how these daggers slowly developed or acquired a personality of their own, becoming gods or spirits in their own right. The keris also comes to mind here. In time simple tools were no longer sufficient for the sacrifice, and the spirit-infused dagger took over as ritual objects...fascinating.

I recall a mention of Cretans practicing cannibalism as well at the end of Minoan civilization - when the flood created by the explosion of Santorini wiped out thier northern coast...

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The copper mace is a most remarkable object however it was used. This picture of an aztec ceremonial knife was very graciously lent to the Royal Academy London for the exhibition "Aztecs" a few years ago by the Museo National de Antropologia Mexico City. The British Museum also has a spectacular example covered in turquoise and other stones but I prefer this example. Acts of cannibalism could be straying a little off subject but it is still worth mentioning. Ritual cannibalism has been found quite far into present day USA. I have not read anything to suggest cannibalism as a supplement to the staple diet in the Americas. I have not read that the sacrifices in the Aztec empire were in any way linked to sustenance except in a spiritual manner for the priesthood. It seems to have been worldwide historically. Even in fairly modern times in the South Pacific I am not sure there is strong evidence that cannabalism was like pork chop night at the Simpsons . However the practise has produced many of the worlds most outstanding art. IMHO

On a South Pacific island you are surrounded by fish. But how do you find enough protein in a desert?
Apparently, human flesh was the main source of protein for both ancient Aztecs and Anasazi . Human sacrifice in these societies was a perfect blend of supernatural mumbo-jumbo and practical dietology.

[Bill M]

It may still be happening in Togo, west Africa.

http://www.reuters.com/article/oddly...s&pageNumber=1