Question in terminology

Devadatta · 12th January 2010, 01:09 AM

Hi Gentlemen,

Recently I was thinking about terminology of oriental daggers. Most western authors call them jambiya - doesn't matter where they come from - Yemen, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey etc. So we have what we call "syrian jambiya", "turkish jambiya", "balcan jambiya" and so on.

But is this approach correct? Even if we focus on Arabian peninsula, we note the difference between Yemen and Oman - we have two different types of daggers, even though they look pretty similar, BUT I guess no Omani man would call his dagger a jambiya - they have a term khandjar. The same way I don't think a Yemeni man would use khanjar to indentify his dagger. In Saudi Arabia as far as I understand both terms are used - what we call wahhabi-style is oftenly being identifiyed as khanjar even by native arabs, but Meccan style is called jambiya.

But anyone knows, how they call jambiya-like daggers in Syria? Turkey? Kurdistan? In India I guess there is such a word jambiya - due to their historical contacts with Yemen. My point is to clarify the actual local name for what we call "jambiya" for each region. Would anyone help me?

Thanks in advance

Jim McDougall · 12th January 2010, 07:16 PM

Hi Devadatta,
An excellent subject, and one that has brought profound discussion and debate from time immemorial among weapons collectors and scholars.
It would be virtually impossible to try to catalog many weapons accurately using the often collective terms that have become associated with many of them, and often it is necessary to use qualifying terms in conjunction.

It is good to focus on a particular weapon form as you have done here, as the countless other instances of conflicting terminology with other weapons would be quite overwhelming all at once.

As you have well pointed out, in Oman the dagger with dramatic curved scabbard that quite honestly, I have always thought of as janbiyya is indeed termed khanjar by Omanis. According to Robert Elgood, in "Arms & Armour of Arabia" , al Hasa, the Emirates, Oman, Muscat and parts of Hadhramaut all use the term 'khanjar' for thier traditional daggers.
It is stated that the temporal line of demarcation for use of that term stands at Dhufar in Southern Arabia, and the Yemeni term 'janbiyya' takes its place.

As might well be imagined, cultural diffusion plays havoc with terminology and with the presence of Omanis in other regions, the terms become used of course simultaneously.

In the north in the Najd, while the khanjar term is used, the Badu use the term 'giddamiyyah' or 'sibriyyah' denoting the size of the blade, but whether used conjunctively is unclear.

While the Wahhabi term is used, often incorrectly for Central Arabian types of these daggers, it is actually referring to the very large traditional forms that are used in Yemen, Hijaz and Asir of Western Arabia. In Hijaz, these are termed 'sabak; in Asir, 'sabik'; and more to the south by Yemen border, 'sabiki'.

In Hadhramaut there are apparantly more localized terms, 'abdi' and in the northern part and Yemen, 'gusbi'. Further detail on these is unclear as to any distinction, but that would require a detailed typology.

In Rwala, a broad and long version is 'gdaimi', while broad and short remains 'khanjar'.

In Syria and Iraq, the khanjar terms prevails.

In Albania, Egypt and the Balkans along with Turkey there must be local terms in various dialects and languages. Interestingly in Turkey and the Balkans, the term khanjar is more associated with the yataghan, and in Persia with a pistol grip curved double edge dagger.

In India, the forms there are in the Arab regions in the west with the more familiar Arab type dagger and known as janbiyya, as well as those with the more Iraqi type hilts .
The Persian pistol grip type daggers in India are known as khanjars.

In North Africa, the well known janbiyya with the lunette form pommel and distinct shaped blade is known as a koumyya, and indiginous to Morocco.

Didn't Shakespeare say something like, a janbiyya by any other name, is it still a janbiyya????

I hope this offers some help, and that the others, far more informed than I can fill in with regional and localized terms they have found.

All best regards,
Jim

P.S. In determining terms applied regionally, it is important to note that much of this will depend on which ethnic or otherwise specified group is being considered as clearly there will be variations.

Dom · 13th January 2010, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... snip ...
In North Africa, the well known janbiyya with the lunette form pommel and distinct shaped blade is known as a koumyya, and indiginous to Morocco.
... snip ...

Hi Jim
koumiya it's the name for Morocco dagger, but the vernacular name inside this country is :
- "moose"
which means within other Middle-Eastern countries; razor ...

à +

Dom

Jim McDougall · 13th January 2010, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Jim
koumiya it's the name for Morocco dagger, but the vernacular name inside this country is :
- "moose"
which means within other Middle-Eastern; razor ...

à +

Dom

There ya go!!

Thats excellent Dom, and a great illustration of the vernacular terms in addition to terms used in reference.
Thanks very much , all the best,
Jim

Devadatta · 16th January 2010, 04:18 PM

Thanks a lot for your ansewr - it's very useful!

Jim McDougall · 16th January 2010, 05:53 PM

youre welcome! always glad to be useful

12th January 2010, 01:09 AM	#1
Devadatta Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 118	Question in terminology Hi Gentlemen, Recently I was thinking about terminology of oriental daggers. Most western authors call them jambiya - doesn't matter where they come from - Yemen, Oman, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey etc. So we have what we call "syrian jambiya", "turkish jambiya", "balcan jambiya" and so on. But is this approach correct? Even if we focus on Arabian peninsula, we note the difference between Yemen and Oman - we have two different types of daggers, even though they look pretty similar, BUT I guess no Omani man would call his dagger a jambiya - they have a term khandjar. The same way I don't think a Yemeni man would use khanjar to indentify his dagger. In Saudi Arabia as far as I understand both terms are used - what we call wahhabi-style is oftenly being identifiyed as khanjar even by native arabs, but Meccan style is called jambiya. But anyone knows, how they call jambiya-like daggers in Syria? Turkey? Kurdistan? In India I guess there is such a word jambiya - due to their historical contacts with Yemen. My point is to clarify the actual local name for what we call "jambiya" for each region. Would anyone help me? Thanks in advance

12th January 2010, 07:16 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Devadatta, An excellent subject, and one that has brought profound discussion and debate from time immemorial among weapons collectors and scholars. It would be virtually impossible to try to catalog many weapons accurately using the often collective terms that have become associated with many of them, and often it is necessary to use qualifying terms in conjunction. It is good to focus on a particular weapon form as you have done here, as the countless other instances of conflicting terminology with other weapons would be quite overwhelming all at once. As you have well pointed out, in Oman the dagger with dramatic curved scabbard that quite honestly, I have always thought of as janbiyya is indeed termed khanjar by Omanis. According to Robert Elgood, in "Arms & Armour of Arabia" , al Hasa, the Emirates, Oman, Muscat and parts of Hadhramaut all use the term 'khanjar' for thier traditional daggers. It is stated that the temporal line of demarcation for use of that term stands at Dhufar in Southern Arabia, and the Yemeni term 'janbiyya' takes its place. As might well be imagined, cultural diffusion plays havoc with terminology and with the presence of Omanis in other regions, the terms become used of course simultaneously. In the north in the Najd, while the khanjar term is used, the Badu use the term 'giddamiyyah' or 'sibriyyah' denoting the size of the blade, but whether used conjunctively is unclear. While the Wahhabi term is used, often incorrectly for Central Arabian types of these daggers, it is actually referring to the very large traditional forms that are used in Yemen, Hijaz and Asir of Western Arabia. In Hijaz, these are termed 'sabak; in Asir, 'sabik'; and more to the south by Yemen border, 'sabiki'. In Hadhramaut there are apparantly more localized terms, 'abdi' and in the northern part and Yemen, 'gusbi'. Further detail on these is unclear as to any distinction, but that would require a detailed typology. In Rwala, a broad and long version is 'gdaimi', while broad and short remains 'khanjar'. In Syria and Iraq, the khanjar terms prevails. In Albania, Egypt and the Balkans along with Turkey there must be local terms in various dialects and languages. Interestingly in Turkey and the Balkans, the term khanjar is more associated with the yataghan, and in Persia with a pistol grip curved double edge dagger. In India, the forms there are in the Arab regions in the west with the more familiar Arab type dagger and known as janbiyya, as well as those with the more Iraqi type hilts . The Persian pistol grip type daggers in India are known as khanjars. In North Africa, the well known janbiyya with the lunette form pommel and distinct shaped blade is known as a koumyya, and indiginous to Morocco. Didn't Shakespeare say something like, a janbiyya by any other name, is it still a janbiyya???? I hope this offers some help, and that the others, far more informed than I can fill in with regional and localized terms they have found. All best regards, Jim P.S. In determining terms applied regionally, it is important to note that much of this will depend on which ethnic or otherwise specified group is being considered as clearly there will be variations.

16th January 2010, 04:18 PM	#5
Devadatta Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 118	Thanks a lot for your ansewr - it's very useful!

16th January 2010, 05:53 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	youre welcome! always glad to be useful