spectacular carving for comment

mariusgmioc · 17th March 2016, 09:01 PM

Javanese?!

A. G. Maisey · 17th March 2016, 09:22 PM

Clever carving, but not a keris.

Art or maybe craft? Yes.

Skillful work? Yes.

A keris? No.

mariusgmioc · 17th March 2016, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Clever carving, but not a keris.

Art or maybe craft? Yes.

Skillful work? Yes.

A keris? No.

Thank you Alan! I knew it.

Battara · 18th March 2016, 06:18 AM

Alan, not to be horribly ignorant, but is it the fact that it was not made in a traditional laminated fashion that makes this not a keris?

mariusgmioc · 18th March 2016, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Alan, not to be horribly ignorant, but is it the fact that it was not made in a traditional laminated fashion that makes this not a keris?

I would also be interested to hear Alan's explanation, but to me a Keris is a weapon, a kind of dagger more exactly, suitable for stabbing.

The one in the photo is not a weapon or a dagger as it won't be able to stab anything without bending or even breaking.

However, it may be called "decorative keris"... I believe.

A. G. Maisey · 19th March 2016, 01:11 AM

Battara, this question of yours is a horribly tricky one to answer, and it is something that keris people have debated for a very long time:-

what is a keris?

For me, it comes down to something that is keris-like needing to satisfy a few cultural requirements, before I am able to accept that I'm looking at a keris.

Other people who are very knowledgeable in the field of keris have various other requirements that sometimes relate to the purely physical appearance:- some will say that it must be asymmetric, others that it must have a recognisable gandhik, others that it must be able to be interpreted as a Gunungan, others (the real sticklers) that it must be in compliance with a known pakem.

With this object under discussion, the things that make it impossible for me to accept this as a keris are principally rooted in the design ethic which has no place in Javanese ornamental design, yet, if we were to get rid of all the out-of-place ornamentation, and fill in the holes, we would have a Javanese keris.

All the piercing in the sorsoran is strongly reminiscent of one of the things that used to be done with poor quality keris to make them more saleable.

I don't know where the craftsman drew his inspiration from, but the designs used look like something between a child's version of "Jack the Dragon Slayer", and a Chinese nightmare. The design by any Javanese standard is appalling. Absolutely hideous. But it is very clever work, well executed.

Then we have the consideration of the usefulness of this keris. These days a keris in Jawa is mostly viewed as an item of dress. I most sincerely doubt that any Javanese gentlemen with whom I am acquainted would be prepared to wear this keris under any circumstances. If the blade were to be seen he'd be too embarrassed to show his face in polite society ever again.

Then again, it would be useless as a weapon --- except maybe to wave at the kids stealing my fruit and cause them nightmares.

Nope this object is purely and simply a piece of canvas, its purpose is to permit the craftsman to display his skill, which is considerable. But he needs to go back to school and take a "Keris 101" course.

17th March 2016, 09:01 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	spectacular carving for comment Javanese?! Attached Images

17th March 2016, 09:22 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,879	Clever carving, but not a keris. Art or maybe craft? Yes. Skillful work? Yes. A keris? No.

18th March 2016, 06:18 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	Alan, not to be horribly ignorant, but is it the fact that it was not made in a traditional laminated fashion that makes this not a keris?

19th March 2016, 01:11 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,879	Battara, this question of yours is a horribly tricky one to answer, and it is something that keris people have debated for a very long time:- what is a keris? For me, it comes down to something that is keris-like needing to satisfy a few cultural requirements, before I am able to accept that I'm looking at a keris. Other people who are very knowledgeable in the field of keris have various other requirements that sometimes relate to the purely physical appearance:- some will say that it must be asymmetric, others that it must have a recognisable gandhik, others that it must be able to be interpreted as a Gunungan, others (the real sticklers) that it must be in compliance with a known pakem. With this object under discussion, the things that make it impossible for me to accept this as a keris are principally rooted in the design ethic which has no place in Javanese ornamental design, yet, if we were to get rid of all the out-of-place ornamentation, and fill in the holes, we would have a Javanese keris. All the piercing in the sorsoran is strongly reminiscent of one of the things that used to be done with poor quality keris to make them more saleable. I don't know where the craftsman drew his inspiration from, but the designs used look like something between a child's version of "Jack the Dragon Slayer", and a Chinese nightmare. The design by any Javanese standard is appalling. Absolutely hideous. But it is very clever work, well executed. Then we have the consideration of the usefulness of this keris. These days a keris in Jawa is mostly viewed as an item of dress. I most sincerely doubt that any Javanese gentlemen with whom I am acquainted would be prepared to wear this keris under any circumstances. If the blade were to be seen he'd be too embarrassed to show his face in polite society ever again. Then again, it would be useless as a weapon --- except maybe to wave at the kids stealing my fruit and cause them nightmares. Nope this object is purely and simply a piece of canvas, its purpose is to permit the craftsman to display his skill, which is considerable. But he needs to go back to school and take a "Keris 101" course.