VOC BLADES: A comprehensive look

[Jim McDougall]

Presently we are discussing the Sinhalese kastane on a concurrent thread and one of the features which seems to arise on many examples are the blades marked VOC (Vereenigde Oost-Indisch Compagnie) and prominently marked year dates such as 1775; 1757; 1768 etc.

It seems these Dutch East India company blades not only occur with some consistency on the kastanes, but throughout the Indonesian and Malaysian archipelagos on various types of indigenous swords and edged weapons.

Many of the VOC blades have Amsterdam town marks but of course the other key VOC ports may have been represented as well.

I would like to look further into the diffusion of these blades, which appear to be specifically issued for trade, and hope those out there with examples or knowledge on these blades might come together here and share in discussion.

It seems these blades are invariably 18th century from around 1740s to 1770s, though some earlier examples with 1606 or 1660 seem to be talismanically used numbers or commemorative dates perhaps.

[Sajen]

Hello Jim,

good idea! I have seen some Timor swords with dutch klewang blades and own one byself, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=timor I will post some new pictures soon as possible and I am sure that members will own also swords like this. Will be nice to see others.

Regards,

Detlef

[Maurice]

Good idea to give this a good research.
Once I tried to research these VOC blades, but till now I didn't find anything what was usefull enough to start with. Also the pieces I've found, didn't had the right provenance to take the VOC marks serious.

But one thing I know. Blades with VOC on it will sell a lot better against a much higher price. So you can imagine that this had been stamped later on many blades to get it more interesting!

I hope somebody has good information for us, but hopefully not guesses, but marks supported with any kind of interesting provenance.

Allready a friendcollector and I tried to get more information in a Dutch museumlibrary, to find anything about these kind of stamps.
However we didn't succeed than, and after that we didn't had time to pick this up again.

Thanks for opening this interesting thread Jim!
Hopefully we can find something interesting...

Maurice

[asomotif]

Interesting subject.

It would help if the forum's search machine would support a search for "VOC Blade"

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for the support guys!!! All of you are in key position to learn more on these blades, and asomotif has noted, hopefully this thread will archive the topic of the VOC blades for future researches as well.
The goal here is to review more on these blades both as occurring on issued or regulation swords and cutlasses as well as how they diffused into the various colonial trade spheres.
Detlef, looking forward to photos!
Maurice great points on the faking of these kinds of marks, and your efforts to find more in that library are much appreciated, we always keep at it! so often more can be found at later attempts.

All the best,
JIm

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much for the support guys!!! All of you are in key position to learn more on these blades, and asomotif has noted, hopefully this thread will archive the topic of the VOC blades for future researches as well.
The goal here is to review more on these blades both as occurring on issued or regulation swords and cutlasses as well as how they diffused into the various colonial trade spheres.
Detlef, looking forward to photos!
Maurice great points on the faking of these kinds of marks, and your efforts to find more in that library are much appreciated, we always keep at it! so often more can be found at later attempts.

All the best,
JIm

Salaams Jim, I was amazed that EIC simply did not stamp sword blades but did so on gunpowder weapons and bayonets.. For the latter see http://www.armsregister.com/articles...ore_musket.pdf
The Dutch, as you state did... and many examples exist on web and forum.

I have not found any Kastane with Portuguese stamps... and reason that there were none because of the nature of the weapon which was a purebred native blade at the time of the Portuguese influx.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Andrew]

Shaver Kool

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Shaver Kool

OH NO!!!!!!

[Bryan.H]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Shaver Kool

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

A quick brief on VOC is on http://www.nusantara-delft.nl/en/his...e-voc-periode- From which I have extracted a plan of Batavia fort showing the canal system, The Governor, and a Kastane sword shown separately recorded as with a VOC blade mark.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[kronckew]

the hembrug marked blade on pg.1 of the thread is from a dutch klewang.

like this one of mine: (we've discussed these before, ad nauseum)
(mine's got a solingen made blade tho )

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Presently we are discussing the Sinhalese kastane on a concurrent thread and one of the features which seems to arise on many examples are the blades marked VOC (Vereenigde Oost-Indisch Compagnie) and prominently marked year dates such as 1775; 1757; 1768 etc.

Hello Jim. Maybe it's nice to have a look at the following image, which had been drawned by Jan Brandes in 1785.
It's a scene around a show piece with the VOC emblem.
To the left we see the Singalese/Ceylonese VOC militaries and minders/guards,
to the right the kings envoys of Kandy with a letter of the king.

Regards,
Maurice

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Hello Jim. Maybe it's nice to have a look at the following image, which had been drawned by Jan Brandes in 1785.
It's a scene around a show piece with the VOC emblem.
To the left we see the Singalese/Ceylonese VOC militaries and minders/guards,
to the right the kings envoys of Kandy with a letter of the king.

Regards,
Maurice

Salaams Maurice, A quick note from my perspective as this is an important picture showing a group of Mudalyars and what looks like a personal guard on the right with Kastane drawn in salute and with the envoy carrying the letter...... the other members of the entourage being fan carriers and servants possibly to the head Mudalyer who has shoes! Those with a sash are depicted in their Kastane hanging to the left side .. Various others are guards variously with guns and spears.

See also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18111

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All...
Interesting to note that the method of paying for spices by the VOC was often by ceramics barter(obtained from China and for many years exclusively by the Dutch from Japan). The items were stamped VOC as below. The map shows that to get to the Indian Ocean, Dutch Ships steered virtually to the Americas and essentially hung a sharp left letting the trade winds do the work..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Maurice, A quick note from my perspective as this is an important picture showing a group of Mudalyars and what looks like a personal guard on the right with Kastane drawn in salute and with the envoy carrying the letter...... the other members of the entourage being fan carriers and servants possibly to the head Mudalyer who has shoes! Those with a sash are depicted in their Kastane hanging to the left side .. Various others are guards variously with guns and spears.

See also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18111

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hello Ibrahiim,

Thank you for your input. But I have to debunk your perspective according the people standing in the left.
The text I've added about the drawing had been written by the drawer himself, Jan Brandes in a book.
The ones in the left are definately the Singalese employed by the VOC. I've seen those kind of blue clothing also on other images from Jan Brandes.
These style of jackets (if that's the right name) are a bit like the Dutch VOC people carried.

About the people on the right side you're correct, as I also have been written before.
PS.: I don't have any knowledge about them nor kastanes etc. I just transferred the text from the guy who had made the drawing almost 250 years ago.

Probably the people in the other kastane thread you're referring to, are still using the fashion of the blue VOC jackets hundreds of years ago?

Regards,
Maurice

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Maurice

Hello Ibrahiim,

Thank you for your input. But I have to debunk your perspective according the people standing in the left.
The text I've added about the drawing had been written by the drawer himself, Jan Brandes in a book.
The ones in the left are definately the Singalese employed by the VOC. I've seen those kind of blue clothing also on other images from Jan Brandes.
These style of jackets (if that's the right name) are a bit like the Dutch VOC people carried.

About the people on the right side you're correct, as I also have been written before.
PS.: I don't have any knowledge about them nor kastanes etc. I just transferred the text from the guy who had made the drawing almost 250 years ago.

Probably the people in the other kastane thread you're referring to, are still using the fashion of the blue VOC jackets hundreds of years ago?

Regards,
Maurice

Salaams Maurice Its a great drawing but... The chaps to the left are wearing sash and sword..Kastane. They are Mudalyars. They are the middle aristocracy and officers of the beaurocracy ... head civil servants/officers... through whom the Dutch did their bidding. I think however that we are speaking the same language since they were Sri Lankan and working essentially for the Dutch... and a few years after no doubt for the English.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Maurice Its a great drawing but... The chaps to the left are wearing sash and sword..Kastane. They are Mudalyars. They are the middle aristocracy and officers of the beaurocracy ... head civil servants/officers... through whom the Dutch did their bidding. I think however that we are speaking the same language since they were Sri Lankan and working essentially for the Dutch... and a few years after no doubt for the English.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hello Ibrahiim,

OK thank you for noticing. I really didn't know they were, all I could get from the text was that they were natives, but employed by the VOC.

I'll post more on the subject later..

Regards,
Maurice

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Presently we are discussing the Sinhalese kastane on a concurrent thread and one of the features which seems to arise on many examples are the blades marked VOC (Vereenigde Oost-Indisch Compagnie) and prominently marked year dates such as 1775; 1757; 1768 etc.

It seems these Dutch East India company blades not only occur with some consistency on the kastanes, but throughout the Indonesian and Malaysian archipelagos on various types of indigenous swords and edged weapons.

Many of the VOC blades have Amsterdam town marks but of course the other key VOC ports may have been represented as well.

I would like to look further into the diffusion of these blades, which appear to be specifically issued for trade, and hope those out there with examples or knowledge on these blades might come together here and share in discussion.

It seems these blades are invariably 18th century from around 1740s to 1770s, though some earlier examples with 1606 or 1660 seem to be talismanically used numbers or commemorative dates perhaps.

Hullo everybody!

Has anybody considered that during the latter part of the 18thC:
The proliferation of VOC-stamped blades throughout the Archipelago, especially towards the more eastern parts may be tied in with:
- The British were consolidating their interests in the Archipelago, mainly in the Straits and Soematera/Riaoe. Thus putting pressure on VOC trade.
- VOC (by this time often referred to as Vergaan Onder Corruptie) was in decline and facing bankruptcy. The blades were a sure source of revenue, as they were easier to procure by the locals than locally-made ones.

As for the the various city stamps, I either own or have seen blades with the initials for Amsterdam, Hoorn, Rotterdam and Middelburg. That leaves only Enkhuizen and Delft

Best,

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo everybody!

Has anybody considered that during the latter part of the 18thC:
The proliferation of VOC-stamped blades throughout the Archipelago, especially towards the more eastern parts may be tied in with:
- The British were consolidating their interests in the Archipelago, mainly in the Straits and Soematera/Riaoe. Thus putting pressure on VOC trade.
- VOC (by this time often referred to as Vergaan Onder Corruptie) was in decline and facing bankruptcy. The blades were a sure source of revenue, as they were easier to procure by the locals than locally-made ones.

As for the the various city stamps, I either own or have seen blades with the initials for Amsterdam, Hoorn, Rotterdam and Middelburg. That leaves only Enkhuizen and Delft

Best,

Salaams Amuk Murugul ~ The net effect upon Sri Lankan home grown blades during the Dutch and English periods may have been disastrous as outlined (and with a very impressive bibliography) by Rose Solangaarachchi Postgraduate Institute of Archaeology University of Kelaniya at ~

http://thakshana.nsf.ac.lk/pdf/VIDUR...%2019_1_30.pdf

Quote"In ancient times the caste system was mainly occupational based. As a result technology was preserved by being handed down from generation to generation.The caste system was developed to maintain the socio economic systems of the day.The social system changed with the advent of foreign rule and as a result the traditional technological know how was lost under colonialism.

Another reason for the decline was the cheap import of iron and steel implements imported from Europe and the inability of the indigenous iron producers to adopt new advances in technology".Unquote.

For other linkages in the story see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18111

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[A. G. Maisey]

This badik came into Australia pre-1914, bought in Batavia.

I have only ever seen one bladed weapon with similar markings.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

This badik came into Australia pre-1914, bought in Batavia.

Thanks for the pics!

It's been heavily stained as expected for Jawa blades while the remaining fullering/etc. seem to point to a recycled European blade. How would you judge the metal? Can you exclude the possibility of this blade having been crafted by a pande Jawa? (Seems unlikely to me to be a Jawa-made look-a-like - just trying to take advantage of your experience and you having this piece at your hands...)

I have only ever seen one bladed weapon with similar markings.

What kind of Indo piece was this other one?

These VOC-marked blades are slightly more common than that - will try to post pics of some more examples ASAP.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

I'd prefer not to indulge in speculation Kai. I really only like to comment if I have some sort of evidence to form an opinion on, and all I have with this piece is the certain knowledge of when it entered Australia.

It looks old, but the technology used by smiths in old Europe and smiths in old Jawa was pretty much the same, so there is really nothing I can base an opinion on.

As for how common this sort of thing may be, I can only state my own experience, and I've only ever seen one other blade with a similar stamp. I'm uncertain where, but it was probably one of the museums in Central Jawa, most likely in Solo. I cannot remember what this other piece was, but it was very likely to have been a sword of some kind.

Sorry I cannot be more informative.