Strange Dagger in 16th Century Dutch Painting

laEspadaAncha · 30th December 2010, 02:34 AM

In making the rounds at a local museum yesterday, I saw and photographed some interesting examples of weapons depicted in 16th century European art. Here is a painting by Dutch artist Hieronymus Bosch that dates to 1515 entitled The Arrest of Christ. The ballock dagger with the rondel is interesting enough and raises some questions... I was unaware of such "hybrid" daggers - were they common?

But what really had me scratching my head is the dagger shown in the upper-right corner. The deep belly, strongly-curved edge, hilt design (including the guard and pommel) are all foreign to me (both literally and figuratively). Does anyone know what kind of dagger this is? Does anyone have any photographs of other examples they can share?

fernando · 30th December 2010, 02:33 PM

Fascinating Hieronymus.
The conspicuous dent on the blade edge and the detail of the maker's mark ... as if this specific dagger example has really existed.

David · 30th December 2010, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Fascinating Hieronymus.
The conspicuous dent on the blade edge and the detail of the maker's mark ... as if this specific dagger example has really existed.

I suppose...but this is Bosch we are talking about. Take a good look at any of his paintings and it becomes obvious that we can never take for granted that anything in them was painted as an exact representation of the real world.

laEspadaAncha · 30th December 2010, 06:36 PM

So am I to assume from these posts that you two are of the opinion his caricature-like depictions extended to include the weapons he painted as well?

I ask as in the few other examples of his work I have viewed (this is the only one I have seen in person), his portrayal of small items of detail - namely articles of clothing, accouterments, and weaponry - seems to receive a treatment of realism that runs contrary to his style. For instance, look at the bottom of the third panel of his triptych the Garden of Earthly Delights, where in addition to a more typical rondel dagger there are about a half-dozen other edged weapons depicted with accuracy and detail without a hint of exaggeration...

What is interesting in this example of his work is the portrayal of the same blade protruding from between the ears in the same (3rd) panel...

laEspadaAncha · 30th December 2010, 06:45 PM

Here's a close-up of the hybrid ballock-rondel dagger shown in The Arrest of Christ... What I find interesting about this is we see style elements of the earliest pre-Jacobite dirks (e.g., disc pommel and ballock lobes) that were to evolve from Highland ballock daggers over the next century.

Matchlock · 30th December 2010, 08:10 PM

The hilt and pommel remind me of the Swiss type of dagger but the 'Malchus' shaped extremely curved blade clearly seems to reflect Oriental influence.

On the one hand, we cannot generally rule out that such a type of dagger actually existed. On the other, as David and Fernando have put out, this is Hieronymus Bosch. He is well known for his satirical, drastically overdrawn and 'fantasy' style of paintings, their characters and old style equipment. Often his paintings contain allusions to old sayings, and the faces, bodies and accouterments of his persons are both surrealistically and cinically distorted. His range of grotesque fantasy was unique among the late medieval/early Renaissance painters.

Of course, the formal style of the first dagger shows characteristic late Gothic elements, so it may not be pure fiction. The ballock dagger obviously is completely authentic.

Anyway, this is a really great thread as it shares my love of period artwork sources - they are most important when it comes to discussing original objects!

Best,
Michael

30th December 2010, 02:34 AM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Strange Dagger in 16th Century Dutch Painting In making the rounds at a local museum yesterday, I saw and photographed some interesting examples of weapons depicted in 16th century European art. Here is a painting by Dutch artist Hieronymus Bosch that dates to 1515 entitled The Arrest of Christ. The ballock dagger with the rondel is interesting enough and raises some questions... I was unaware of such "hybrid" daggers - were they common? But what really had me scratching my head is the dagger shown in the upper-right corner. The deep belly, strongly-curved edge, hilt design (including the guard and pommel) are all foreign to me (both literally and figuratively). Does anyone know what kind of dagger this is? Does anyone have any photographs of other examples they can share?

30th December 2010, 02:33 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Fascinating Hieronymus. The conspicuous dent on the blade edge and the detail of the maker's mark ... as if this specific dagger example has really existed.

30th December 2010, 06:36 PM	#4
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	So am I to assume from these posts that you two are of the opinion his caricature-like depictions extended to include the weapons he painted as well? I ask as in the few other examples of his work I have viewed (this is the only one I have seen in person), his portrayal of small items of detail - namely articles of clothing, accouterments, and weaponry - seems to receive a treatment of realism that runs contrary to his style. For instance, look at the bottom of the third panel of his triptych the Garden of Earthly Delights, where in addition to a more typical rondel dagger there are about a half-dozen other edged weapons depicted with accuracy and detail without a hint of exaggeration... What is interesting in this example of his work is the portrayal of the same blade protruding from between the ears in the same (3rd) panel...

30th December 2010, 06:45 PM	#5
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Here's a close-up of the hybrid ballock-rondel dagger shown in The Arrest of Christ... What I find interesting about this is we see style elements of the earliest pre-Jacobite dirks (e.g., disc pommel and ballock lobes) that were to evolve from Highland ballock daggers over the next century.

30th December 2010, 08:10 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The hilt and pommel remind me of the Swiss type of dagger but the 'Malchus' shaped extremely curved blade clearly seems to reflect Oriental influence. On the one hand, we cannot generally rule out that such a type of dagger actually existed. On the other, as David and Fernando have put out, this is Hieronymus Bosch. He is well known for his satirical, drastically overdrawn and 'fantasy' style of paintings, their characters and old style equipment. Often his paintings contain allusions to old sayings, and the faces, bodies and accouterments of his persons are both surrealistically and cinically distorted. His range of grotesque fantasy was unique among the late medieval/early Renaissance painters. Of course, the formal style of the first dagger shows characteristic late Gothic elements, so it may not be pure fiction. The ballock dagger obviously is completely authentic. Anyway, this is a really great thread as it shares my love of period artwork sources - they are most important when it comes to discussing original objects! Best, Michael