Please help on 1796 HC sword marks

[fernando]

I still have to clean the rust from this piece, but i can't wait to found out what the marks on it represent.
Anyone here familiar with these things?
Thanks a lot in advance
Fernando

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[Jim McDougall]

WOW!!!
That is a beauty, the famed M1796 heavy cavalry disc hilt, as carried by the 2nd Dragoons ("Royal Scots Greys") at thier immortal charge at Waterloo.
The marking 'I. Gill' was of course John Gill, one of the more prominant swordmakers of Birmingham. Osborn & Gunby as seen on the scabbard was another purveyor of c.1800-10 and typically supplied M1796 patterns for both light and heavy cavalry.
In incongruent scabbard in my estimation has always suggested battlefield pickups, as these swords and scabbards were carried off fields of battle in the aftermath, and seldom were this disconnected pieces found together.
The swords which remained with original scabbards were of course with those survivors.
There is always of course the fact that many of these swords were collected into the Royal Armouries as they became obsolete in the 1820's, but it is my understanding that many, if not most of those were destroyed in a fire in the 1850's if I recall. There was a brief project at refurbishing these into other practice or cutlass type weapons I think, but cannot recall that distinctly either. It would seem unlikely that mismatches would occur in the case of weapons turned in.

The crowned 4 is an inspectors mark after the weapon was 'viewed' on acceptance for issue. Usually regimental marks are found on the underside of the disc, and include regiment numerics, rack and issue numbers.

This could very well have been one of these famed 'disc hilts' that was carried by the 'Greys' that day at Waterloo. I have seen examples of disc hilts that were indeed there, and also by this maker I. Gill.

This is what I can recall for now, but I'll have to find the references for the inspectors mark in Robson, but its buried someplace here in the bookmobile!!

All the best,
Jim




P.S. Please be ultra careful cleaning this, super fine steel wool and light grade oil...see if you can find those markings on the underside of the disc. This may be a real treasure!! Whether so marked or not, these disc hilts have become about as rare as hens teeth..so have profound value regardless.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Fernando,
The blade would have been made after 1801 as that was when the founder of the company Thomas Gill died and his sons Thomas, James and John took over. Many of these Heavy Cavalry swords were modified during their working lives usually the blade tip geometry was changed and sometimes the guard was cut to make it more comfortable and easier to draw. As Jim says good examples of this pattern are pretty scarce so a real nice find.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

In research on these many years ago, I had found a reference somewhere that indicated that John Gill had a contract for a number of these swords in 1811. In subsequent years I tried everything to find that reference, and Annis & May, Wilkinson, and other references including communicating with Brian Robson himself revealed no further reference to that contract.

As for the modifications, I have understood that the Royal Scots Greys before leaving Gravesend for Belgium, were ordered to grind down the back edges of the blades on thier disc hilts. It is also my understanding that after Waterloo, the inner part of the discs were ground down and in many cases the langets removed (never quite understood the purpose of removing the langets).

[fernando]

Hi guys,
I am not yet done with the investigation on this piece, but i will post some 'intermediary' stuff, to keep the thread warm.
First of all, many thanks for your contributions, Jim and Norman .
I have finished the cleaning of the blade and the scabbard (inside and outside); i was glad to find thqat the wooden plates are still there.
There are no more marks, except for a little V on the guard front; i wonder if this is the punction for viewed.
I don't think this sword was used by a Scot Dragoon at Waterloo. Judging by the circumstances, it should have instead being used by the British forces that were poured into Portugal by the time of Napoleonic invasions (1808-1814) or, most probably used by a Portuguese soldier.
Remember that Britain, at the time already an industrialized country, and with a strong need to stop Napoleon to occupy the peninsula and strangle the whole continent access, besides supplying armed forces, has equiped the Portuguese with staggering quantities of military equipment and all kinds of gear.

Between 1808 and 1814 the figures were:
160 000 Brown Bess
2 300 Baker carbines
3 000 Cavalry carbines
7 000 Pistols
15 000 Cavalry swords
150 000 Black leather gear
190 000 Uniforms
53 000 pairs of shoes
5 700 pairs of boots
10 000 Black leather provisions
30 000 plumed shakos.

Also according to some sources were further supplied in 1809:
30 000 coats
40 000 shirts
40 000 socks
40 000 sacks
20 000 blankets
5 000 saddles
84 bundles of surgery equipment.

(These tremendous supplies were rather strategical; we must remember that Junot, in his first invasion, had immediately demilitarized and disarmed the country, which was already in a critical condition.)

So it wouldn't be a surprise that this sword was distributed to a Portuguese dragoon or even footman; although local infantry officers were equiped with the Portuguese sword version model 1806, the majority of the 1796 swords supplied to Portuguese were shortened by four inches, due to their small stature. But then this fact somehow puts aside the hipothesis that this example was used by a Portuguese, as its blade seems to be entire (34 1/ 2"). I mean 'somehow', as the source i am quoting has come across some ten specimens with a shortened blade and one with its entire length, which belonged to a guy that served in a militia regiment.
It should be added that the 1796 pattern was used by Portuguese cavalry until as late as 1851.
By the way, Jim and Norman, did you know that the British called this sword, woodchopper?
You say Jim, that that John Gill has supplied a numer of these swords in his 1811 contract ? Might he have made prior supllies?
In April 1811 Massena was defeated by the allied forces near Lisbon and started his painfull retreat.
The Osborn scabbard that comes now with this sword is marked with the Osborn & Gunby society name , which has been active between 1808-1821.
We may even have the fantasy that, once the British transferred to Portugal bulk quanties of weaponry, maybe the inspection control was also 'bulky wise' and this sword was already supllied with an unmarried scabbard; but this is only a fantasy as i said.
When i visit again the seller, i have a promise that he will tel me something about this sword provenance.
However there is a difference between owner's provenance and user's provenance.
Let's see if i can find out about its original user, rather than only its last owner .

By the way Jim, do you think the inspector's mark (crowned 4) could drive us to a determined inspector's name and or a date of inspection ?

All the best
Fernando

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[fernando]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

...Many of these Heavy Cavalry swords were modified during their working lives usually the blade tip geometry was changed and sometimes the guard was cut to make it more comfortable and easier to draw ...

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As for the modifications, I have understood that the Royal Scots Greys before leaving Gravesend for Belgium, were ordered to grind down the back edges of the blades on thier disc hilts. It is also my understanding that after Waterloo, the inner part of the discs were ground down and in many cases the langets removed (never quite understood the purpose of removing the langets) ...

I have read the following:
... There were a number of slight variations made in service including modifying the point from hatchet to spear point, removing the langets, and cutting away the inside of the disc to prevent wear on the uniform ... The change from hatchet point to spear point was believed to be a result of experiences in the Peninsula and one diary account by Cornet James Smithies makes reference to this being undertaken before Waterloo ... Modifications to the disc edge seem to be immediate with reference to 364 swords of the 2nd Dragoon Guards being altered by 'cutting the hilts' in 1797 ... The removal of langets was more frequently a field based operation and the result of the swords being difficult to quickly replace in the scabbard...
(from the "Swords and Pistols Website").

Fernando

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Fernando,
Seeing the photographs of the hilt and blade you appear to have a complete unmodified example. Having handled a few of these I wonder just how long one could wield such a sword in a battle situation. I suspect a lot of hours in practice would be needed before you could confidently handle a 'beefy' blade like this in actual combat. I wonder if, like the draw arm on longbowmen, the sword arm was noticeably more muscle intensive than its counterpart, I suppose it must have been. I look forward to more info on this most distinctive sabre.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Wouldn't mind being let loose in the store that housed that list of equipment.

[Jim McDougall]

Pretty amazing 'intermediary' stuff Fernando ! and thank you for the note on the field modifications you added as well. It is amazing how much info is available these days with the computer, as opposed to how we did things in the old days...lots of letter writing, and waiting...(no more cracks about parchment Andrew!!! )

Actually I had heard about the term 'woodchopper' which was sort of derisively used describing both the M1796 swords for British cavalry. I recall that from an article written by John Morgan in "Classic Arms and Militaria" back in the 90's about the M1796 swords, and I think it was titled 'chopping wood' or to that effect. At that time I was very fascinated by these huge British disc hilts, and was talking with him a great deal on the ancestry of these swords to the M1769-1775 Austrian disc hilts, handled by then Capt. LeMarchant on campaign in Flanders. He was a brilliant officer and wanted to bring standardization of swords to the British army and proposed both the light and heavy patterns based on these and other European examples.
He was deemed the 'scientific soldier' and was killed in cavalry combat at Salamanca during the campaigns there.

The stamped crown with number was the mark used when the weapon was viewed, and this configuration was used up to about 1820, when a letter was also added. According to Robson ("Swords of the British Army", p.191) individual viewers used different numbers at different times, so it would likely be hard to determine with any certainty. The 'V' is puzzling, as it does not seem that letter was ever used to denote 'viewing', and it seemed that it would be rather indiscriminate, although it would seem that organized control in those times were somewhat irregular. The crowned number stamp would seem to negate the need for the V as a view mark. I had thought perhaps it might be an arrow, which of course were ordnance marks then, but this seems more the letter V rather than the phaeon, and there is no BO (board of ordnance initials).

The Gill contract I referred to remains completely unsubstantiated so I can only presume my memory, or mind was sound concerning this reference.
The Gill family was profoundly one of the key producers of swords for the service, and I cannot imagine there were not other contracts. It seems there is a work in progress on the Gill swords, but I do not yet have further details.

Norman, you are right, these swords would have been horrendously consuming in actual combat, and the only driving force that enabled these troopers to use them as such was virtually pure adrenalin. The amount of skill in the average troopers swordsmanship was limited, which was what drew the derisive comment from the French, and probably did resemble chopping action. The French cavalry were keen swordsmen, and adamantly preferred the thrust, emphasizing the conflict over that cut vs. thrust over the next century in many European armies.
From what little I recall of fencing (many many moons ago!) working at strengthening various muscle groups was essential before handling a blade, and even with the very light sabre, one was spent quickly in combat.
A great movie was "The Duellists" where the combatants in a heated duel were incredibly evenly matched swordsmen in the French cavalry, and fought until both were so exhausted they could barely left the sabres.It was often said that after combat in an engagement, and intense action, horsemen could be seen just sitting motionless in thier saddles with tears streaming down thier faces, strictly from the anticlimatic release of adrenalin.

Well, I didnt mean to write a book oops,

All the best,
Jim

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Richard,
As you've probably read on this thread I was very fortunate in being able to purchase from Fernando the sword that was the subject of the initial post on this thread. The V mark on the guard has never been satisfactorily explained and I wondered if you have any insight as to its meaning. The sword was discovered in Portugal and has been in the possession of a Portuguese family for some considerable time although it is not possible to determine how long that may have been nor the original source.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Richard]

Hi Norman

I'm afraid I do not know what the V stamping might mean. I don't think I've ever seen it before on one of these swords, or any other British sword of the period. However, of course, it is a very well known stamp on French Napoleonic swords, often found on hilts, blades and scabbards and signifying as I recall "verifie" (checked or approved). But on a British sword ?

Richard

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Richard,
As you've probably read on this thread I was very fortunate in being able to purchase from Fernando the sword that was the subject of the initial post on this thread. The V mark on the guard has never been satisfactorily explained and I wondered if you have any insight as to its meaning. The sword was discovered in Portugal and has been in the possession of a Portuguese family for some considerable time although it is not possible to determine how long that may have been nor the original source.
My Regards,
Norman.