My Birthday Present: Knife for ID Please

[CourseEight]

I received this beauty tonight and luckily my mom saved the auction pictures. I'm totally at a loss as to where this might be from, how old it is, etc. I'm posting it here because it's my understnading that these cast brass handles are 1800s Europe? The blade has the man in the moon, suns, and panoply markings; I think they seem copied, and not original trade markings, or is this not the case? The extreme curvature of the blade and the unusual tip is fairly unfamiliar to me.

Thanks in advance for any help!

--Radleigh

[CourseEight]

And more photos:

[M ELEY]

Hmmm...very interesting piece!

OK, I'll take a stab at it. First off, it's of the period late 18th-early 19th century, based on the scabbard more than anything. It looks French to me, with the stylized hilt classic for the period and again, the scabbard also in the French pattern. At first glance, I thought perhaps it was a cut-down blade, but now I think it is original. The markings are indeed copies of markings found on hangers and cuttoes of the period, and although not of the same exact quality, still wouldn't call them 'crude'. These markings fell out of favor by mid-19th, so I don't think its of the later period.

Weighing all this, I would say that this is either a small hunting hanger based on the markings found on other such hunting swords (definately not a fighting sword) and resembling many of the side knives seen in hunting TROUSES...or it's just a stylized piece of cutlery made as a "show-off" piece. Still, it's pretty cool. The curved point end could have been used to help split open the game/hide. Note the fuller/blood groove, again leading me to suspect hunting knive/sword.
How long is the piece,BTW?

[celtan]

There are lots of half-moons motifs, including one at the top of the halberd, where it's outright abnormal. The design is european, so perhaps we should look at an european country that had significant islamic presence in the mid-19th C.?

Albania, Hungary, Croatia, Turkey, Montenegro, etc...?

[CourseEight]

Thanks for the replies so far! The straight-line distance from the end of the handle to the tip of the scabbard is 14.5 in. Blade length approx. 9 in.

I did mean crude in a comparitive sense, of course. It's quite a pretty piece, and still VERY sharp, so a hunting sort of knife makes perfect sense. I wonder how the motifs of the handle may relate to hunting in some way? I'm actually quite interested in what the handle is supposed to represent. Also, do you think the stylized tip might represent a heart?

M ELEY and everyone, I would be very interested in seeing scabbards and hunting trousses in general of this time period for comparison!

--Radleigh

[fernando]

Hi Radleigh

Originally Posted by CourseEight

...Also, do you think the stylized tip might represent a heart? ...

Whether or not it's a heart, it's also what occurred to me in the moment i saw it.

Isn't that suspension chain somehow 'non operational' for a field hunting dagger ? Doesn't it sugest, as the rest of the decoration, a sort of presentation cerimonial dirk type specimen ?
Sorry if i am talking nonsense .


Fernando

[fernando]

Hi Manolo

Originally Posted by celtan

... european country that had significant islamic presence in the mid-19th C.? Albania, Hungary, Croatia, Turkey, Montenegro, etc...?

Aren't Muslims prohibited to depict human (and other) figures ?
... Probably i am talking nonsense again

Fernando

[fearn]

Hi All,

Neat piece! To me, the most surprising thing is that it's sharp. I would have guessed that it was dull, given the odd shape, the chain hanger, and all the symbolism.

I'm starting to wonder if those figures on the handle aren't supposed to be Dionysius (or Bacchus) with a satyr covering his crotch so that he wouldn't appear nude. That design has me scratching my head, because I know Greek and Roman mythology pretty well, and it isn't ringing any bells. I'm also wondering whether the design is supposed to be (homo)erotic in some way, or merely humorous. In guessing that it was something to do with Dionysius, I'm going with the humorous interpretation, but I really don't know. Perhaps Samson? I'm missing a clue here.

I'm not sure what to make of all the blade markings, but someone went to a lot of trouble to do sun, moon, starrish things and a fascus, spears, swords, and drum.

Perhaps it's a super duper fruit and cheese knife for a high end party?

Hi Fernando,

We can talk over a glass of shiraz (first grown in Iran) and talk about whether all muslims strictly follow the precepts of Islam... Human figures aren't supposed to be shown, but they aren't supposed to drink alcohol, either. That said, I don't think it's Muslim, but beyond guessing European, I don't know what to make of it.

F

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Manolo



Aren't Muslims prohibited to depict human (and other) figures ?
... Probably i am talking nonsense again

Fernando

Quite right mate. In a strict interpretation, images of any living creatures are off limits, but some less strict muslim cultures seem to have a more liberal view of this.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Radleigh,
I'm jealous, that is a really nice knife. I also think hunting, the hooked part looks to have been sharpened on the inside useful for gutting game I think. Continental European and early 19th Century would be my guess, but it is just a guess. I think if you look to the classical Greek or Roman
myths and stories you'll find the meaning with regard to the handle. Unfortunately the last time I sat in a Latin class was about 40 plus years ago so you'll need someone with a more recent interest in the Classics. Again nice piece.
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Military Doctor/Surgeons field knife.

[Atlantia]

What a superb piece.
Its clearly a very specialised piece. I tend agree it is probobly a hunting item but the military type engravings above the sun/moon are really strange. I find myself thinking of those weird axes from Saxony and thinking its possibly region specific. I like the field surgeon idea.
It looks Germanic to me. I thought mid 18thC as a first impression but I've never seen anything like it before so its only gut feelings.

One things for sure. Its VERY VERY nice.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Radliegh,
You are probably right, find who the figures are supposed to represent and you'll find the use for the knife. It has martial style decor on the blade which might be a clue, I noticed a horses head, I think, so maybe cavalry veterinary surgeon the list of possibilities is longish may be even something quite mundane who knows. Good luck with your search.
Regards,
Norman.

[M ELEY]

I do agree that the hilt casting may, indeed, reveal much about this fine piece, but the inscribed markings are found on both military weapons and "hunting" hangers of the period. I have a hanger with short blade, marked by the maker/owner with strret address in Amsterdam, circa 1750, that has the sun face, profile of the moon, etc, and as it is a hanger, must beclassified as a hunting piece unless some other provenance shows that it was carried as a fighting weapon (of course, many of these were and thus, it's in my maritime collection). I've seen curved hunting pieces and trouse pieces (sorry, don't know how to post pics- completely computer-challenged . Would like to see more from folks who have suggested surgical knife, as this possibility also makes sense...

[Tim Simmons]

Following on directly from the last piece of text. The last section may explain the fantastical style to the handle. A piece like this would be something to boast with at a hunting party.

[Jim McDougall]

Extremely interesting item Radleigh!! and great discussion on this thread which really has brought some well thought out observations and certainly has piqued my interest. I have done some checking in resources as well, and as always, that curious blade tip seems to be familiar, and of course eludes me!!

I am inclined to agree with the Continental assessment and likely second half of the 18th century, with this seeming to me to be a 'waldpraxe' or chopper as typically found in trousse de chasse, hunting swords or knives with sets of eviscerating instruments. These are described in "Wallace Collection Catalogs" (Sir James Mann, 1962, #A703, 704, p.356). This example of course is a singular item without the usual accompanying implements.

Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons", 1971) discusses these hunting knives and swords and also illustrates on p.65 some of the interesting blade shapes found in 'trousse de veterinairre' suggesting the closeness of veterinary tools and hunting weapons in many cases.

Hunting swords and knives have long been closely associated with the gentry and nobility of many countries, and it is not surprising to see classical images and allegory in the decorative motif on these. The occult or magical symbols on the blade correspond to the talismanic markings that became prevalent on hunting swords from 17th into the 18th century, eventually in latter 18th century added to military blades. The panoply of martial trophies on this example suggest that latter 18th century date. French rococo style and brass also correspond to 18th century.
There is an interesting reference in Blackmore (p.57) that seems somewhat worthy of note in the neoclassic sense, referring to Charles V of France and his hunting knives, "...to be worn on silver chain while riding through the forest".

The curiously profiled blade tip on this piece seems to correspond with neoclassic and artistic decoration more than practicality, and seems deliberately dramatic to add to the aesthetic effect. It brings to mind the often consistantly seen features often seen on blades that seem to defy any practical purpose or symbolism, such as the deliberately placed notches on Austrian cavalry sword blade backs near the point in the 18th century.

Beautiful piece, and an exciting anomaly!!

Best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

In my humble opinnion, the chain is also fundamental to find this piece's purpose.
Say Radleigh, is the chain band placed at the middle of the scabbard, fixed (welded, riveted), or could you slide it towards the tip ... in a way that it would hang correctly, when you suspend it by the chain ? Are the chain links open or closed (welded) ?
In other words, if this piece can not be (belt) suspended, isn't it hard to conceive that it was made to be used on the field.
Wouldn't it therefore be a domestic implement ... to be laying on a table, the chain being only a fantasy. As Fearn sugested at a certain stage: "Perhaps it's a super duper fruit and cheese knife for a high end party ?" Or similarly a presentation cake knife ), offered to a big shot of the period.
Isn't its design rather awkward, blade curvature plus bizarre tip, to be used in animal surgery, or as bleeding fleam, or for butchering ?
... Just thinking aloud.
Fernando

[Gavin Nugent]

I found this painting tonight, Decapition of the saint Katharina, Bernaert Van Orley (1488–1541).
Although this piece is not as old as the picture, have a look at the guy in the bottom right corner of the painting and tell me if you think it is the same style of side arm? The hilt looks the same length and shape and the curve and fittings are the same too...maybe origins of this artist might point more to orgins of this knife?

Gav

PS, this shows how it was mounted too

[Jim McDougall]

Incredible find Gav!!! You definitely have a fantastic eye!
The weapon worn by that figure does seem to have size and curvature similar, though the hilt of course is gold metal but of different profile.

I finally discovered more on the background of this painting, which is a Flemish religiously themed subject based on the martyrdom of St. Catherine.
This refers to St. Catherine of Alexandria, who in the 4th century was condemned by Roman Emperor Maxentius to death by use of the 'breaking wheel' (note the wheels in the background). It was said that when she touched the wheel it broke, so she was beheaded. There seem to be many variations of this legend, and revived interest in her martyrdom began in the 15th century when it was said that she had spoken to Joan of Arc.

The costumes and of course weapons in this painting clearly display the use of artistic license so typical in these times with these subjects, portraying the figures in fashions of the time the painting was done (Van Orley was Flemish , b.1488-d. 1541) . It would appear that the weapons shown, including the unusually wide and short weapon worn by the figure, may correspond to weapons from the late 15th to early 16th century, despite the 4th century event being depicted.

The weapon we are discussing in this thread, obviously not of this age, may well be a neoclassic representation of an earlier form hunting weapon, and the talismanic and military markings reflecting 18th century popularity of these styles.

Now to look for these curious hunting weapon forms from Europe from end of 15th century forward.

All the best,
Jim