yataghan but confused of origin and date

mavi1970 · 10th March 2005, 03:53 PM

Hi, first I would like to thank this forum, its a very informative place that I just happened to find and I am very pleased. I have this yataghan but I do not know what its origin is, the date is stamped on it but it might be a reproduction, but I do not know. It does have the scabbard which is of leather and the total length of the sword is 31 inches roughly with the blade being 25 and the handle 5 inche. overall its in really good condition, and the hilt is also of a dark horn. any and all help in this yataghan would be appreciated, thanks again.

mavi1970 · 10th March 2005, 04:09 PM

here are some additional pictures. thanks

ariel · 10th March 2005, 05:19 PM

I think that the blade and the brass parts are real. The date (1227) corresponds to 1812 Gregorian. The brass parts seem to be of Balkan tradition, but this is debatable. Would be interesting to know whether the inscription makes much sense.
I am quite uncomfortable with the horn handle: it is very peculiar in form, crude in execution and generally the ugliest I've ever seen. I think it is a newly-made replacement executed by a person with no great knowledge of traditional Yataghan handles. The scabbard seems to be a replacement, although brass throat might have been recycled.

Of interest,the same seller just sold another one with the same date executed in a very similar style/handwriting and with similar scabbard. A more "military" model. I am puzzled by the similarities between the two examples: they look like coming from the same "shop".
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting

mavi1970 · 10th March 2005, 05:47 PM

thanks for your quick response, so the long and short of it is, i bought a reproduction, hacked together sword. hmmm well i will see what the item looks like when i get it. so any residual value of this item is quite low.

derek · 10th March 2005, 06:09 PM

Hi Mavil,

Don't assume that this means you have a "reproduction". This could be a reasonably old blade that has been modified with various "enhancements" over time. It could be that the original scabbard rotted and was replaced, and that the grips were broken from use. This is very common and a part of a weapon's story. Take heart, man.

-d

TVV · 10th March 2005, 06:30 PM

I am sorry to say this, but there are quite a few modern reproductions of yataghans made nowadays in Bulgaria, which have similar black horn hilts and brass fittings. Often the bladesmiths who produce them create them according to their own taste without much regard to authentic styles. As the seller is one who sells antiques dug in Bulgaria, there is a possibility that you have an authentic blade that has been given to one of those contemporary bladesmiths, who rehilted it and created a scabbard for it. Here are pictures of a modern yataghan/sheppard's knife I have, in order to show you some similarities:

Of course, I can be wrong, and even if I am right, this does not mean that you need to be unhappy with this yataghan. After all, the blade appears to be authentic and quite nice, and if you do not like the hilt and the scabbard, you can easily get it rehilted in a more traditional manner. Actually, I would be more than happy to have this yataghan for its blade, and if you acquired it because you liked it for one reason or another, then the question about value is irrelevant.

mavi1970 · 10th March 2005, 07:36 PM

thanks for your help and informative knowledge. You are right in your deductions about using old and mixing it with new, and it does make sense, it could be just that these items were added along the life of the sword, but in the end the most important part of the sword, the blade, is original. any information on the preserving these items with oil etc, i tried to search for it but could not find any information. thanks again

ariel · 10th March 2005, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavi1970

thanks for your quick response, so the long and short of it is, i bought a reproduction, hacked together sword. hmmm well i will see what the item looks like when i get it. so any residual value of this item is quite low.

I am sorry if my note depressed you: I did not mean it.
The blade is real, no doubt at all. Many truly old swords had their parts fixed, modified, replaced etc in the course of their rather eventful lives.
The main drift of my note was to draw attention to a rather new (for me, at least!) phenomenon: a possible existence of a Bulgarian "antique fixing shops". Apparently, it was a known fact....
Overall, you did not overpay much (if at all), and should be very content with your acquisition. Even if you got screwed by an unscrupulous seller.... well... I do not think there is a single Forumite here who never had this miserable experience.
Join the club, in all senses of the word!
And, welcome to the Forum!

mavi1970 · 10th March 2005, 09:18 PM

thanks for your response ariel, i am not discouraged in collecting not in the least. but as you said, of these "shops" in bulgaria do tarnish the market, but in the end they do bring old pieces back to life, in one form or another. in the coming days i will also post other items which i have had for quite a while, one is authentic and let the experts take a look at. you are close by also, i am just on the other side of port huron, michigan in canada

10th March 2005, 03:53 PM	#1
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	yataghan but confused of origin and date Hi, first I would like to thank this forum, its a very informative place that I just happened to find and I am very pleased. I have this yataghan but I do not know what its origin is, the date is stamped on it but it might be a reproduction, but I do not know. It does have the scabbard which is of leather and the total length of the sword is 31 inches roughly with the blade being 25 and the handle 5 inche. overall its in really good condition, and the hilt is also of a dark horn. any and all help in this yataghan would be appreciated, thanks again. Attached Images

10th March 2005, 04:09 PM	#2
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	additional pictures here are some additional pictures. thanks Attached Images

10th March 2005, 05:19 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think that the blade and the brass parts are real. The date (1227) corresponds to 1812 Gregorian. The brass parts seem to be of Balkan tradition, but this is debatable. Would be interesting to know whether the inscription makes much sense. I am quite uncomfortable with the horn handle: it is very peculiar in form, crude in execution and generally the ugliest I've ever seen. I think it is a newly-made replacement executed by a person with no great knowledge of traditional Yataghan handles. The scabbard seems to be a replacement, although brass throat might have been recycled. Of interest,the same seller just sold another one with the same date executed in a very similar style/handwriting and with similar scabbard. A more "military" model. I am puzzled by the similarities between the two examples: they look like coming from the same "shop". http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting Last edited by ariel; 10th March 2005 at 05:31 PM.

10th March 2005, 05:47 PM	#4
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	thanks for your quick response, so the long and short of it is, i bought a reproduction, hacked together sword. hmmm well i will see what the item looks like when i get it. so any residual value of this item is quite low.

10th March 2005, 06:09 PM	#5
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Hi Mavil, Don't assume that this means you have a "reproduction". This could be a reasonably old blade that has been modified with various "enhancements" over time. It could be that the original scabbard rotted and was replaced, and that the grips were broken from use. This is very common and a part of a weapon's story. Take heart, man. -d

10th March 2005, 06:30 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	I am sorry to say this, but there are quite a few modern reproductions of yataghans made nowadays in Bulgaria, which have similar black horn hilts and brass fittings. Often the bladesmiths who produce them create them according to their own taste without much regard to authentic styles. As the seller is one who sells antiques dug in Bulgaria, there is a possibility that you have an authentic blade that has been given to one of those contemporary bladesmiths, who rehilted it and created a scabbard for it. Here are pictures of a modern yataghan/sheppard's knife I have, in order to show you some similarities: Of course, I can be wrong, and even if I am right, this does not mean that you need to be unhappy with this yataghan. After all, the blade appears to be authentic and quite nice, and if you do not like the hilt and the scabbard, you can easily get it rehilted in a more traditional manner. Actually, I would be more than happy to have this yataghan for its blade, and if you acquired it because you liked it for one reason or another, then the question about value is irrelevant.

10th March 2005, 07:36 PM	#7
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	thanks for your help and informative knowledge. You are right in your deductions about using old and mixing it with new, and it does make sense, it could be just that these items were added along the life of the sword, but in the end the most important part of the sword, the blade, is original. any information on the preserving these items with oil etc, i tried to search for it but could not find any information. thanks again

10th March 2005, 09:18 PM	#9
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	thanks for your response ariel, i am not discouraged in collecting not in the least. but as you said, of these "shops" in bulgaria do tarnish the market, but in the end they do bring old pieces back to life, in one form or another. in the coming days i will also post other items which i have had for quite a while, one is authentic and let the experts take a look at. you are close by also, i am just on the other side of port huron, michigan in canada