Ring grip Army issue Kukri, A correction for collectors

spiral · 18th July 2015, 08:21 PM

For benefit of clarity & order photos in thread are hosted by photobucket, but to conform to forum rules Ive also added them to the forum as as 1st for permanent record.

Should have added them last...

.................................................. .................................................. .
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge."

Daniel J. Boorstinpiral

spiral · 18th July 2015, 08:23 PM

Ring grip Army issue Kukri, A correction for collectors.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For a while now , over a decade in fact , there have been many posts on this & others forums regarding the incredibly prolific kukri found generally very cheaply at every car boot & junk shop in England generally known as the ring grip kukri labelling it as an official WW2 Indian Army issue kukri. Myself & many other kukri collectors have disagreed with this, due to lack of any factual evidence. Just unreliable hearsay & blurry pictures.

Heres an example of such a kukri....

[see below]

They have a a pair of brass or white metal rings adorning the handle & quite often have nickel plaited blades... {Rather similar in design to the infamous tourist/export lion head kukri & indeed the fake ww1 mk.2 kukris one see for sale so often.

Sadly on occasion, this viewpoint of them being WW2 Indian Army Issue kukri to Gurkhas, has had the effect of artificialy inflating there price for collectors {Mostly from the USA.} to artificial levels based on false premise that . its a genuine ww2 Gurkha issue kukri.

It is known & accepted in the kukri collecting community that these were being made & for sale in India {Dehradun to be precise.} in WW2, Many Officers & men bought them. It is of course traditional in the British army for Officers to buy there own uniforms & equipment.

Here is a provenanced example... Carried by.Captain Arthur Russell Stuart Holmes of the Royal Engineers during 1944.

[see below]

spiral · 18th July 2015, 08:26 PM

Many soldiers also bought kukri ether to use or as souveniers from the many hundreds if not thousands of Kukri factors, markets, Bazaars & street sellers in India. Some were of this type.{Many,many others types as well.} {this is all evidenced from both photos & period accounts.} I would not be surprised if some Gurkhas even bought them themselves.

Kukris in market, 1946/7.

[see below]

Another market, more kukris...

[see below]

But there is no evidence so far , that they were Indian army issue. No purchase orders, no plans, no period written statements , no inspection marks. etc.

.................................................. .................................................. .
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge."

Daniel J. Boorstinpiral

spiral · 18th July 2015, 08:27 PM

These kukri in India are known as Garhwali kukris after the Garhwallis who made them.. I should add kukris with silver rings on the hilt probably date back to WW1. And were probably purchased privately by & for Officers. But there a very different beast.

Silver ring grip kukri. from 4th Gr.

[see first picture below]

And one from the 10th GR.

[see second picture below]

The legitimate known ww2 versions of these have steel bolsters. Those made later have steel, brass or white metal bolsters.

All of the posts claiming these are WW2 Indian Army issue are from one person. The picture he uses most to justify his belief that they are ww2 Indian Army issue is this rather strangely blurry one.

[see third picture below]

Recently another kukri collector/researcher came across this less blurred copy.. & accurately named it. Its Gurkhas of 4th Indian Division keep watch on enemy positions in Alpi di Catenaia from high ground on Monte Castiglione, 29 July 1944. The complete picture is found here: http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/gurkha%20amp%20kukri.jpg

Here are closer up views

[see pictures 4 and 5 below]

Interestingly this picture is from the collection of the Imperial War Museum in London. Copies can be found, enlarged & downloaded here..

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205204677

It Shows beyond doubt the supposed Indian Army Ring Grip kukri. feature is actually a typical probably standard looking WW2 Regimental or Battalion issue kukri. {usualy made in group purchases from the many & varied kukri manufacturesrs in India & various engineering yards on occasion & perhaps on even rarer occasions Nepal. Also on a few documented occasions in times that demand outstripped supply made in house within the Gurkha units from available scrap metal.

.................................................. .................................................. .
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge."

Daniel J. Boorstinpiral

spiral · 18th July 2015, 08:28 PM

Another strange piece of evidence is an apparently undated picture of a Mess orderly carrying such a kukri! {Actually the clothing could be just civilian style leave attire, I would think? .}

But anyway I've always found this rather amusing as Mess orderly kukris are usually display type pieces,{Like officers presentation kukri on occasion.} which of course are generally different from issue kukri.

Here's the mess orderly picture cited as evidence for it being a WW2 Indian army issue kukri.

[see below]

& another showing mess orderlies wearing silver kothimora & possibly an ivory or more likely {I surmise.}bone handled piece.

[see below]

While I don't know whether these were paid for by the regiment or by the individual Gurkhas, {After all kukris are dirt cheap in India & Nepal even today... never mind in distant times.} to describe them as ww2 Indian army issue seems rather a stretch of credulity & terminology.

When mess orderlies fought in combat, {As some did.} I somehow doubt if it was with an Indian army issue Kothimora with bone handled hilt & silver scabbard!

Of course although maybe one in a thousand of those found today are ww2 private purchase kukris, & some may have been carried in combat zones, the vast majority were manufactured & exported to the UK in the 60s & 70s to be sold in seaside shops along with low grade lions head kukris, & the bone top & ebonised shaft swordsticks {which sadly are often now sold by dealers & auction houses as Victorian!} that were piled high next to the cheap china & buckets & spades.

In fact they are still made & exported from India to the UK today! So without individual province it is impossible to say 100% whether it is ww2 or not, but I think its safe to say they were not Official Indian army Issue kukri to the Gurkhas! {Or probably anyone else!}

Spiral

.................................................. .................................................. .
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge."

Daniel J. Boorstinpiral

Rick · 18th July 2015, 10:15 PM

Mate, please upload all your linked pictures to the site or they will be taken down .

18th July 2015, 08:21 PM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Ring grip Army issue Kukri, A correction for collectors For benefit of clarity & order photos in thread are hosted by photobucket, but to conform to forum rules Ive also added them to the forum as as 1st for permanent record. Should have added them last... .................................................. .................................................. . "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." Daniel J. Boorstinpiral Attached Images Last edited by spiral; 18th July 2015 at 08:49 PM.

18th July 2015, 08:23 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Ring grip Army issue Kukri, A correction for collectors. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For a while now , over a decade in fact , there have been many posts on this & others forums regarding the incredibly prolific kukri found generally very cheaply at every car boot & junk shop in England generally known as the ring grip kukri labelling it as an official WW2 Indian Army issue kukri. Myself & many other kukri collectors have disagreed with this, due to lack of any factual evidence. Just unreliable hearsay & blurry pictures. Heres an example of such a kukri.... [see below] They have a a pair of brass or white metal rings adorning the handle & quite often have nickel plaited blades... {Rather similar in design to the infamous tourist/export lion head kukri & indeed the fake ww1 mk.2 kukris one see for sale so often. Sadly on occasion, this viewpoint of them being WW2 Indian Army Issue kukri to Gurkhas, has had the effect of artificialy inflating there price for collectors {Mostly from the USA.} to artificial levels based on false premise that . its a genuine ww2 Gurkha issue kukri. It is known & accepted in the kukri collecting community that these were being made & for sale in India {Dehradun to be precise.} in WW2, Many Officers & men bought them. It is of course traditional in the British army for Officers to buy there own uniforms & equipment. Here is a provenanced example... Carried by.Captain Arthur Russell Stuart Holmes of the Royal Engineers during 1944. [see below] Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 23rd July 2015 at 03:51 PM.

18th July 2015, 08:26 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Many soldiers also bought kukri ether to use or as souveniers from the many hundreds if not thousands of Kukri factors, markets, Bazaars & street sellers in India. Some were of this type.{Many,many others types as well.} {this is all evidenced from both photos & period accounts.} I would not be surprised if some Gurkhas even bought them themselves. Kukris in market, 1946/7. [see below] Another market, more kukris... [see below] But there is no evidence so far , that they were Indian army issue. No purchase orders, no plans, no period written statements , no inspection marks. etc. .................................................. .................................................. . "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." Daniel J. Boorstinpiral Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 23rd July 2015 at 03:59 PM.

18th July 2015, 08:27 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	These kukri in India are known as Garhwali kukris after the Garhwallis who made them.. I should add kukris with silver rings on the hilt probably date back to WW1. And were probably purchased privately by & for Officers. But there a very different beast. Silver ring grip kukri. from 4th Gr. [see first picture below] And one from the 10th GR. [see second picture below] The legitimate known ww2 versions of these have steel bolsters. Those made later have steel, brass or white metal bolsters. All of the posts claiming these are WW2 Indian Army issue are from one person. The picture he uses most to justify his belief that they are ww2 Indian Army issue is this rather strangely blurry one. [see third picture below] Recently another kukri collector/researcher came across this less blurred copy.. & accurately named it. Its Gurkhas of 4th Indian Division keep watch on enemy positions in Alpi di Catenaia from high ground on Monte Castiglione, 29 July 1944. The complete picture is found here: http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/gurkha%20amp%20kukri.jpg Here are closer up views [see pictures 4 and 5 below] Interestingly this picture is from the collection of the Imperial War Museum in London. Copies can be found, enlarged & downloaded here.. http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205204677 It Shows beyond doubt the supposed Indian Army Ring Grip kukri. feature is actually a typical probably standard looking WW2 Regimental or Battalion issue kukri. {usualy made in group purchases from the many & varied kukri manufacturesrs in India & various engineering yards on occasion & perhaps on even rarer occasions Nepal. Also on a few documented occasions in times that demand outstripped supply made in house within the Gurkha units from available scrap metal. .................................................. .................................................. . "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." Daniel J. Boorstinpiral Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 23rd July 2015 at 05:13 PM.

18th July 2015, 08:28 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Another strange piece of evidence is an apparently undated picture of a Mess orderly carrying such a kukri! {Actually the clothing could be just civilian style leave attire, I would think? .} But anyway I've always found this rather amusing as Mess orderly kukris are usually display type pieces,{Like officers presentation kukri on occasion.} which of course are generally different from issue kukri. Here's the mess orderly picture cited as evidence for it being a WW2 Indian army issue kukri. [see below] & another showing mess orderlies wearing silver kothimora & possibly an ivory or more likely {I surmise.}bone handled piece. [see below] While I don't know whether these were paid for by the regiment or by the individual Gurkhas, {After all kukris are dirt cheap in India & Nepal even today... never mind in distant times.} to describe them as ww2 Indian army issue seems rather a stretch of credulity & terminology. When mess orderlies fought in combat, {As some did.} I somehow doubt if it was with an Indian army issue Kothimora with bone handled hilt & silver scabbard! Of course although maybe one in a thousand of those found today are ww2 private purchase kukris, & some may have been carried in combat zones, the vast majority were manufactured & exported to the UK in the 60s & 70s to be sold in seaside shops along with low grade lions head kukris, & the bone top & ebonised shaft swordsticks {which sadly are often now sold by dealers & auction houses as Victorian!} that were piled high next to the cheap china & buckets & spades. In fact they are still made & exported from India to the UK today! So without individual province it is impossible to say 100% whether it is ww2 or not, but I think its safe to say they were not Official Indian army Issue kukri to the Gurkhas! {Or probably anyone else!} Spiral .................................................. .................................................. . "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." Daniel J. Boorstinpiral Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 23rd July 2015 at 05:05 PM.

18th July 2015, 10:15 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Mate, please upload all your linked pictures to the site or they will be taken down .