Snider Carbine .577 P-1853 Mark I

Bill M · 1st October 2008, 01:38 PM

Went down to Atlanta Cutlery to pick up a few khuks for a friend in Mexico (they don't ship there) and fell in love with this little carbine.

1837 and 1842 Enfields were heavily used by both North and South in the American Civil War in the 1860s.

According to the guy at AC, Snider rifles and the very rare carbines started life as a percussion cap Enfield. In the mid 1800s metallic cartridges were becoming popular. Faster to reload and more durable in the field than muzzle loaders. However Enfiled had a huge supply of fine muzzle loaders that were rapidly becoming obsolete.

An American, Joseph Snider, had an idea to modify these percussion cap rifles and muskets by cutting the end of the barrel and installing a breech-block mechanism that allowed reloading with a .577 caliber metallic centerfire cartridge.

When the trigger is pulled, the hammer hits a projection in the nipple that transmits the force to a firing pin inside the breech, that hits the primer. Then you pull open the breech, pull out the brass, and insert a new cartridge.

Mine is a Mark I, the first of three models. The later models had a lock to hold the breech closed. It seems very solid.

I am having it checked out to determine if mine would be safe to fire it. All I need to do is to find some 140 year old ammo. Actually the collector ammo is available, but incredibly expensive. Modern made ammo is also available and less expensive.

Marked "J.C.&A. LORD. London, Birmingham & Bombay" on barrel. Checkered stock and engraved metal. Lord's was an outfitter similar to Abercrombie & Fitch. The rifle does have British proof marks, and thus is of British manufacture.

"According to research done by Rob Whittaker, this long-established East India merchant was based near the metal trades quarter in Birmingham. Originally the firm was known as J. Lord & Co., and by 1850 was located at Friday Bridge. By the 1860's the firm was trading as J. C. & A. Lord, and located at 69 Newhall Street. By the close of the 19th century, the name had been changed to J.C. & W. Lord. "

Hope that you enjoy the pictures!

Pukka Bundook · 1st October 2008, 02:51 PM

Good morning Bill,

You have some very nice pictures of the little carbine.
Being so light they jump a bit when fired, but are lovely little guns,

The first Snider I had was Given to me, a total wreck, shoe mashed in with a hammer, so block wouldn't close,. Barrel bent, wood missing around lock mortice, no lock.

Got him all fixed up and he shoots very well. (Called him Lazarus, 'cos he was raised from the dead!)
I am sure your carbine will be fine to shoot. being in Much much better condition, and they hadnt been used much in Nepal.

Let us know how it goes!

Richard.

Jim McDougall · 2nd October 2008, 01:38 AM

Hi Bill,
It is really hard not to be attracted to carbines, and the Snider is no exception. I do recall the development of the Snider was the installation of the breech block on the Enfield.
Some years ago, actually in my early collecting days, one of my favorite movies was "King, of the Khyber Rifles" based of course on the Talbot Mundy novel, in turn based on the memoirs of Sir Robert Warburton, "Eighteen Years in the Khyber". My curiosity naively led me to wondering what kind of rifles would 'Khyber Rifles' have been. The ensuing research left me hopelessly empassioned with studying everything about the British Raj, and discovering that the 'Khyber Rifles' were not a type of gun, but a specialized unit of tribal police effectively patrolling the Khyber Pass region.
I also discovered that the rifles used, after the tribesmen gave up thier trusty jezails, would presumably have been the early Snider rifles after they were being replaced by the Martini-Henry's.

It really became fascinating studying the history of the Raj, particularly the Northwest Frontier, and these guns are distinctly representative of much of its history.

In another note, regarding the howdah pistol, it is interesting that many of the early pistols used for this purpose were actually sawed off .577 Sniders, probably of course the rifles, not the carbines though.

Richard, great story on the 'Lazarus' gun! and I have very much admired the work you have constantly done to save these old warriors! I recall very distinctly the Northwest Frontier/Afghan tulwar you also quite literally returned to life some time ago. Beautifully done work!!!

Thank you so much guys!
All the best,
Jim

1st October 2008, 01:38 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Snider Carbine .577 P-1853 Mark I Went down to Atlanta Cutlery to pick up a few khuks for a friend in Mexico (they don't ship there) and fell in love with this little carbine. 1837 and 1842 Enfields were heavily used by both North and South in the American Civil War in the 1860s. According to the guy at AC, Snider rifles and the very rare carbines started life as a percussion cap Enfield. In the mid 1800s metallic cartridges were becoming popular. Faster to reload and more durable in the field than muzzle loaders. However Enfiled had a huge supply of fine muzzle loaders that were rapidly becoming obsolete. An American, Joseph Snider, had an idea to modify these percussion cap rifles and muskets by cutting the end of the barrel and installing a breech-block mechanism that allowed reloading with a .577 caliber metallic centerfire cartridge. When the trigger is pulled, the hammer hits a projection in the nipple that transmits the force to a firing pin inside the breech, that hits the primer. Then you pull open the breech, pull out the brass, and insert a new cartridge. Mine is a Mark I, the first of three models. The later models had a lock to hold the breech closed. It seems very solid. I am having it checked out to determine if mine would be safe to fire it. All I need to do is to find some 140 year old ammo. Actually the collector ammo is available, but incredibly expensive. Modern made ammo is also available and less expensive. Marked "J.C.&A. LORD. London, Birmingham & Bombay" on barrel. Checkered stock and engraved metal. Lord's was an outfitter similar to Abercrombie & Fitch. The rifle does have British proof marks, and thus is of British manufacture. "According to research done by Rob Whittaker, this long-established East India merchant was based near the metal trades quarter in Birmingham. Originally the firm was known as J. Lord & Co., and by 1850 was located at Friday Bridge. By the 1860's the firm was trading as J. C. & A. Lord, and located at 69 Newhall Street. By the close of the 19th century, the name had been changed to J.C. & W. Lord. " Hope that you enjoy the pictures! Attached Images

1st October 2008, 02:51 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Good morning Bill, You have some very nice pictures of the little carbine. Being so light they jump a bit when fired, but are lovely little guns, The first Snider I had was Given to me, a total wreck, shoe mashed in with a hammer, so block wouldn't close,. Barrel bent, wood missing around lock mortice, no lock. Got him all fixed up and he shoots very well. (Called him Lazarus, 'cos he was raised from the dead!) I am sure your carbine will be fine to shoot. being in Much much better condition, and they hadnt been used much in Nepal. Let us know how it goes! Richard.

2nd October 2008, 01:38 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,938	Hi Bill, It is really hard not to be attracted to carbines, and the Snider is no exception. I do recall the development of the Snider was the installation of the breech block on the Enfield. Some years ago, actually in my early collecting days, one of my favorite movies was "King, of the Khyber Rifles" based of course on the Talbot Mundy novel, in turn based on the memoirs of Sir Robert Warburton, "Eighteen Years in the Khyber". My curiosity naively led me to wondering what kind of rifles would 'Khyber Rifles' have been. The ensuing research left me hopelessly empassioned with studying everything about the British Raj, and discovering that the 'Khyber Rifles' were not a type of gun, but a specialized unit of tribal police effectively patrolling the Khyber Pass region. I also discovered that the rifles used, after the tribesmen gave up thier trusty jezails, would presumably have been the early Snider rifles after they were being replaced by the Martini-Henry's. It really became fascinating studying the history of the Raj, particularly the Northwest Frontier, and these guns are distinctly representative of much of its history. In another note, regarding the howdah pistol, it is interesting that many of the early pistols used for this purpose were actually sawed off .577 Sniders, probably of course the rifles, not the carbines though. Richard, great story on the 'Lazarus' gun! and I have very much admired the work you have constantly done to save these old warriors! I recall very distinctly the Northwest Frontier/Afghan tulwar you also quite literally returned to life some time ago. Beautifully done work!!! Thank you so much guys! All the best, Jim