Interesting wootz tulwar for comments

Atlantia · 23rd October 2010, 12:53 PM

Hi All!
Well, here's one that I'm very happy to have found.
A long slender shamshir style blade with a fine reasonable contrast wootz pattern. It looks to my inexpert eye to be fairly a random 'watered' pattern, Indian Wootz.... But what do I know!
Any comments on the type of wootz, style/area of origin of the sword, age etc greatfully received.

Gavin Nugent · 23rd October 2010, 02:15 PM

Nice sword Gene, congrats.

One question that I hope someone maybe able to answer with exactness rather than assumptions, the very small block ricasso seen on this example. I have seen it on a jade hilted shamshir and two other Persian or Central Asian Shamshir.
Does this small block denote anthing in particular beit a regional thing or otherwise? I'd certainly like to know.

Gav

Atlantia · 23rd October 2010, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Nice sword Gene, congrats.

One question that I hope someone maybe able to answer with exactness rather than assumptions, the very small block ricasso seen on this example. I have seen it on a jade hilted shamshir and two other Persian or Central Asian Shamshir.
Does this small block denote anthing in particular beit a regional thing or otherwise? I'd certainly like to know.

Gav

Thanks Gav,
TBH this blade has a couple of atypical features. The block as you mention, and the strangely simple decoration with the curling fuller doing a U-turn at the hilt end of the blade. The corresponding one of the other side is simply straight.
A good long blade though, whats your thoughts on the type of wootz?
Best
Gene

RSWORD · 23rd October 2010, 03:19 PM

Very nice blade! The wootz has good activity, color and contrast and in my opinion is of Persian manufacture. The block ricasso you see at the forte are "cheeks" used to reinforce the tang root and the blade. If you look through the Figiel catalogue, you will notice a lot of blades done in this fashion but typically it seems to happen a lot with nice wootz blades that were probably imported and the tang had to be adjusted to fit the tulwar hilting so these cheeks were added to give stability. The U-turn feature is found primarily on Persian and Indian blades and also some Chinese blades. It is not uncommon for this feature to be on one side only. That is actual the more typical configuration. You have a quality Persian blade with very nice wootz probably late 18th to early 19th century with tulwar hilt. A nice find!

Atlantia · 25th October 2010, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Very nice blade! The wootz has good activity, color and contrast and in my opinion is of Persian manufacture. The block ricasso you see at the forte are "cheeks" used to reinforce the tang root and the blade. If you look through the Figiel catalogue, you will notice a lot of blades done in this fashion but typically it seems to happen a lot with nice wootz blades that were probably imported and the tang had to be adjusted to fit the tulwar hilting so these cheeks were added to give stability. The U-turn feature is found primarily on Persian and Indian blades and also some Chinese blades. It is not uncommon for this feature to be on one side only. That is actual the more typical configuration. You have a quality Persian blade with very nice wootz probably late 18th to early 19th century with tulwar hilt. A nice find!

Rick,

Sorry to throw this question back to you directly, but you have far more experience of diverse wootz than anyone I can think of.
I can now see that this blade is typical of persian wootz, but I'm still curious as to if the pattern is simply due to the methods of manufacture or if it is deliberate?
If it had hitches it would be 'ladder' pattern, but is this basic but rather beautiful pattern genuinely meant to represent flowing water? A novice like me often hears wootz refered to as 'watering' and this, with its flow and irregular swirls feels like the surface ripples of a flowing river.
Sorry, I'm rambling. Simply put, does standard persian wootz have a deliberate pattern, with a symbolic meaning, or is it random?

Many Thanks
Gene

RSWORD · 25th October 2010, 02:46 AM

Hi Gene,

The forging of the blade is a deliberate process to get this kind of result but the pattern produced is somewhat random. In this case, I don't think the pattern produced is meant to symbolize anything but rather what is produced illicits comparisons to flowing water, or sometimes woodgrain so these are more in the describing of what is being seen in the blade. Kind of like which came first, the chicken or the egg. I think the pattern came first, and from that the descriptions of what was being seen. The only pattern that is "created" and not strictly the result of the forging process is the ladder pattern. This is a mechanically created pattern. The wootz ingot is manipulated during the forging process in a way that produces the pattern. It is an artificial ladder over the random pattern the wootz process creates. The variety of patterns that one can find is interesting and many classifications of these patterns have been proposed over the years. There are certain patterns, that due to their level of activity, color and clarity that can be associated with a certain region. Your blade, for example, has the color and consistency in pattern as well as overall activity(swirls, meandering lines, waves, etc.) that is most often associated with Persian manufacture. There are certain patterns which can be associated with India and certain patterns that can be associated with Turkey/Syria. If interested in the study of wootz and the various patterns and classifications, there are some good books I would be happy to recommend.

Lew · 23rd October 2010, 03:23 PM

Well here is my theory the lack of that grind at the ricasso to me means it is a Persian blade. The only thing that bothers me is the hilt which seems to be a later addition. The blade is super nice quality but the hilt seems too plain for such a nice blade? Also it looks a bit long most hilts from that time were quite small. Still a piece of eye candy to me.

Congrats

Lew

RSWORD · 23rd October 2010, 04:45 PM

I wouldn't discount the hilt just yet. Take the hilt out into good sunlight and have a close look. Perhaps the hilt is wootz as well?

Atlantia · 23rd October 2010, 05:42 PM

RSWORD,

Thanks a lot

Thats great news and thanks for explaining the features of the blade.

LEW/RSWORD,

I saw this sword a week ago, great condition but completely cleaned, very carefully with what looks to have been 00 wire wool. Must have taken someone a while, no real scratches, but no patina remaining at all except for the underside of the quillions, which are not pitted but dark brown from surface oxidisation.
I checked and the hilt has not been recently added (the resin looks right and old, there are of course no traces of decoration apart from the pierced area. Also no crosshatching or engraving indicating that it was once more elaborate, but the hilt feels wonderful to hold.

I had a strong feeling that the blade would be wootz, and at the first touch of an etch the wootz sprung immediately to life.
Not on the hilt though sadly.

Best and thanks for your help
Gene

P>S. so now this blade is ID'd as Persian, what would this wootz pattern be called?

Norman McCormick · 23rd October 2010, 07:18 PM

Hi Gene,
Who's the lucky one now? My turn for the 'little green eyed god'. Really
nice, would sit well with my other Tulwars. Can't wait to see what comes out of the hat next.
My Regards,
Norman.

Atlantia · 23rd October 2010, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Gene,
Who's the lucky one now? My turn for the 'little green eyed god'. Really
nice, would sit well with my other Tulwars. Can't wait to see what comes out of the hat next.
My Regards,
Norman.

To be perfectly honest mate I'm completely dumbfounded that in the space of a week I've bought two: "I've always wanted one of those" swords!
I seriously doubt that I can keep this sort of performance going!

Thanks Mate
Gene

Atlantia · 23rd October 2010, 10:47 PM

Further to this being a trade blade and the question of matching it to suitable hilts, I found myself thinking that the fullers end long before the hilt and the blade is rather long.
Would this also suggest that this blade was made with a variety of modifications to fit various hilt styles being catered for?

See pictures below. Fairly standard Shamshir below and good sized Tulwar above.

23rd October 2010, 12:53 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Interesting wootz tulwar for comments Hi All! Well, here's one that I'm very happy to have found. A long slender shamshir style blade with a fine reasonable contrast wootz pattern. It looks to my inexpert eye to be fairly a random 'watered' pattern, Indian Wootz.... But what do I know! Any comments on the type of wootz, style/area of origin of the sword, age etc greatfully received. Attached Images Last edited by Atlantia; 23rd October 2010 at 01:53 PM.

23rd October 2010, 02:15 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Nice sword Nice sword Gene, congrats. One question that I hope someone maybe able to answer with exactness rather than assumptions, the very small block ricasso seen on this example. I have seen it on a jade hilted shamshir and two other Persian or Central Asian Shamshir. Does this small block denote anthing in particular beit a regional thing or otherwise? I'd certainly like to know. Gav

23rd October 2010, 10:47 PM	#12
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Further to this being a trade blade and the question of matching it to suitable hilts, I found myself thinking that the fullers end long before the hilt and the blade is rather long. Would this also suggest that this blade was made with a variety of modifications to fit various hilt styles being catered for? See pictures below. Fairly standard Shamshir below and good sized Tulwar above. Attached Images

23rd October 2010, 03:19 PM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Very nice blade! The wootz has good activity, color and contrast and in my opinion is of Persian manufacture. The block ricasso you see at the forte are "cheeks" used to reinforce the tang root and the blade. If you look through the Figiel catalogue, you will notice a lot of blades done in this fashion but typically it seems to happen a lot with nice wootz blades that were probably imported and the tang had to be adjusted to fit the tulwar hilting so these cheeks were added to give stability. The U-turn feature is found primarily on Persian and Indian blades and also some Chinese blades. It is not uncommon for this feature to be on one side only. That is actual the more typical configuration. You have a quality Persian blade with very nice wootz probably late 18th to early 19th century with tulwar hilt. A nice find!

25th October 2010, 02:46 AM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Hi Gene, The forging of the blade is a deliberate process to get this kind of result but the pattern produced is somewhat random. In this case, I don't think the pattern produced is meant to symbolize anything but rather what is produced illicits comparisons to flowing water, or sometimes woodgrain so these are more in the describing of what is being seen in the blade. Kind of like which came first, the chicken or the egg. I think the pattern came first, and from that the descriptions of what was being seen. The only pattern that is "created" and not strictly the result of the forging process is the ladder pattern. This is a mechanically created pattern. The wootz ingot is manipulated during the forging process in a way that produces the pattern. It is an artificial ladder over the random pattern the wootz process creates. The variety of patterns that one can find is interesting and many classifications of these patterns have been proposed over the years. There are certain patterns, that due to their level of activity, color and clarity that can be associated with a certain region. Your blade, for example, has the color and consistency in pattern as well as overall activity(swirls, meandering lines, waves, etc.) that is most often associated with Persian manufacture. There are certain patterns which can be associated with India and certain patterns that can be associated with Turkey/Syria. If interested in the study of wootz and the various patterns and classifications, there are some good books I would be happy to recommend.

23rd October 2010, 03:23 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Well here is my theory the lack of that grind at the ricasso to me means it is a Persian blade. The only thing that bothers me is the hilt which seems to be a later addition. The blade is super nice quality but the hilt seems too plain for such a nice blade? Also it looks a bit long most hilts from that time were quite small. Still a piece of eye candy to me. Congrats Lew

23rd October 2010, 04:45 PM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	I wouldn't discount the hilt just yet. Take the hilt out into good sunlight and have a close look. Perhaps the hilt is wootz as well?

23rd October 2010, 05:42 PM	#9
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	RSWORD, Thanks a lot Thats great news and thanks for explaining the features of the blade. LEW/RSWORD, I saw this sword a week ago, great condition but completely cleaned, very carefully with what looks to have been 00 wire wool. Must have taken someone a while, no real scratches, but no patina remaining at all except for the underside of the quillions, which are not pitted but dark brown from surface oxidisation. I checked and the hilt has not been recently added (the resin looks right and old, there are of course no traces of decoration apart from the pierced area. Also no crosshatching or engraving indicating that it was once more elaborate, but the hilt feels wonderful to hold. I had a strong feeling that the blade would be wootz, and at the first touch of an etch the wootz sprung immediately to life. Not on the hilt though sadly. Best and thanks for your help Gene P>S. so now this blade is ID'd as Persian, what would this wootz pattern be called?

23rd October 2010, 07:18 PM	#10
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Gene, Who's the lucky one now? My turn for the 'little green eyed god'. Really nice, would sit well with my other Tulwars. Can't wait to see what comes out of the hat next. My Regards, Norman.