Ingots

Jens Nordlunde · 14th February 2010, 10:42 PM

From fiends I have heard that mill balls, once again are offered as being ingots.
If you are interested in ingots, be very careful, and read this old thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=mill+balls

Fixed.
R.

Battara · 15th February 2010, 02:22 AM

For some reason this link does not work.....

Jens Nordlunde · 15th February 2010, 09:45 AM

The link works on my computer, but should it not work on yours try to search for 'mill balls'.

ALEX · 15th February 2010, 11:24 AM

works on mine as well. Excellent info. Thanks Jens for posting

Jens Nordlunde · 15th February 2010, 06:02 PM

Rick, thank you for fixing the problem

.
Alex, thank you for your answer - and remember whatever you buy - be careful.

Battara · 15th February 2010, 06:34 PM

Ok now it works - thank you.

ALEX · 15th February 2010, 06:50 PM

Thanks again, Jens.
I never considered buying the ingots. Too much uncertainty and lack of evidences of origin and authenticity. I think that buying based on "because it looks like wootz ingot" is not good enough... the same is true even for finished, end result products:-)

Mare Rosu · 15th February 2010, 08:41 PM

Jens
What are the ingots that you are asking about look like?
I bought one and sent it on to Dr. Ann for her to test and to keep.
I do not know the results of any testing she may have done on it but it just may be a mill ball and not crucible steel 'Wootz" at all.
As your link to the above thread states, I did by one other ingot but it did not look at all like a mill ball type ingot but rather a large flat disk. I did have it tested and it was deemed cast iron and not crucible steel (wootz).
I sent it back to the dealer.

Attached is a picture of the ingot (mill ball?) I sent to Dr Ann ( taken from your great thread "Magnetic Weapons")
Is this the type you are asking about?

Gene

spiral · 16th February 2010, 01:32 AM

Thank you Jens for keeping the awarness of this subject in high visibility for those that seek the truth of some of the stranger pieces we see out in the commercial world.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 16th February 2010, 02:15 AM

I agree with these observations, and thank you Jens for posting this!

I know little of wootz and its esoterica, but very much agree with caveats.
Something like these unusual ingots or mill balls or whatever the case may be, really should have some sort of accredited authentication. It seems that many times I have seen items listed as varying sorts of rare antiquity, which have turned out to be very ordinary items of far more recent age.

I look forward to hearing more on how this type of metal object can be tested and the outcome.

All best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 16th February 2010, 04:36 PM

Gene, Jonathan and Jim,

Thank you for your posts. I have only seen ingots/mill balls on pictures, so I am not the right one to answer what exactly they look like, so I think Gene should ask Ann what it is. I have however seen the mill balls described like this. “If it has a spherical, or nearly so, form, have a smooth surface then it is very unlikely that it is an ingot.”

If you go to the link above and read post 37 Jeff Pringle gives some of the answer. Here is a short quote, “All steels solidify with a dendritic structure, not just wootz, so that is irrelevant but often comes up because people first hear of crystalline dendrites in steel via wootz.”

Jim, I don’t know what a test would cost, the only thing I have heard is, that it takes some hours of work, so it may be as expensive as the item in question.

Jens

Jeff Pringle · 17th February 2010, 05:58 PM

Since the last time this topic cropped up I found another photo of an original ingot, and a good illustration or two of the crucibles used to make them (which, of course, define the shape of the ingot

). The easy diagnostic feature on ingots is going to be some evidence of a former meniscus (that curve of the surface that contained liquids have near the edge) where the liquid steel met the crucible wall...here are two real ingots, three crucible shapes and some steel shot from a ball mill, you can see the complete lack of similarity!

Jens Nordlunde · 17th February 2010, 06:08 PM

Jeff, Thank you very much for your post and the pictures.
Form this, there is no doubt what mill balls look like, so you have cleared that problem very well - once an for all

.
Jens

Oriental-Arms · 1st March 2010, 05:42 PM

This is not an attempt to prove that these are wootz ingot or mill balls. It was discussed many times in several forums so I will leave it to the expert to decide. But since I was offering for sale few of these wootz/mill balls I feel I should share with you some facts and findings
I sacrificed one of this balls and submitted it to the good hands of Giora Biran, a blacksmith and a friend and this is what we have done:
The ball was cut into two halves with a disk and one of the faces flattened.

(Please note the crack in the center, also known as “pipe”. I will refer to it later.)

One half was heated to about 800 degrees and hammered down (in several heating cycles) to a flat bar shape:

One face was polished and etched to reveal a very clear pattern:

A small part of the bar was further forged to a small kitchen style blade (more and bigger blades are being worked out now), polished and etched:

Oriental-Arms · 1st March 2010, 05:44 PM

The Facts:
1)These balls are definitely coming from India. They are supposedly coming from an old armory but I can not substantiate it.
2) In the pile of several tenth balls that I have seen, many were of quite a symmetrical shape, few of non regular shape and all has the depression on one side.

The findings:
1) These balls were cast in a crucible. The depression and the “pipe” seen on the cut ball is very typical to what happens in the cooling process in the crucible.[br]

2) It is hard steel. We did not measured the exact hardness but Giora estimate it to be (after hardening) around 60

3) The pattern is clear and very similar to what we have seen on Old Indian wootz blades.

The open questions:
1) To start with, why to use cast steel ball for milling? It is far more common to use white cast iron for this task. It has a harder shell and it is definitely cheaper. The milling process require hundreds of balls, so all were cast each in a separate crucible ?? It is quite expensive.
2) In the early 20th C. (the age suggested in a previous thread for this balls) perfect shape balls were easily available, from a variety of materials and sizes. So again why to use crucible cast steel balls?
3) After a short while in the drum the mill balls will definitely get a non regular shape (but will never have the depressions we see here). In the pile of balls I have seen most of the balls had a perfect symmetrical shape. Does this mean that they are all un-used? Below is a photo of two mill balls I personally collected from an abandoned lime stone quarry (abandoned in the 50th). They are made of cast white iron and has the typical shape after use

[br]
4) The chemical composition of the balls may be a key to answer many of the questions. I am planning to do it and I will gladly report further findings

p.s: I had a private correspondence with Jeff Pringle regarding this issue. We are not in agreement and I hope he will post here his opinion.

14th February 2010, 10:42 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Identification of wootz steel ingots From fiends I have heard that mill balls, once again are offered as being ingots. If you are interested in ingots, be very careful, and read this old thread. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=mill+balls Fixed. R. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 17th February 2010 at 06:39 PM. Reason: amplification of description of title

15th February 2010, 08:41 PM	#8
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	What do the ingots look like? Jens What are the ingots that you are asking about look like? I bought one and sent it on to Dr. Ann for her to test and to keep. I do not know the results of any testing she may have done on it but it just may be a mill ball and not crucible steel 'Wootz" at all. As your link to the above thread states, I did by one other ingot but it did not look at all like a mill ball type ingot but rather a large flat disk. I did have it tested and it was deemed cast iron and not crucible steel (wootz). I sent it back to the dealer. Attached is a picture of the ingot (mill ball?) I sent to Dr Ann ( taken from your great thread "Magnetic Weapons") Is this the type you are asking about? Gene Attached Images

17th February 2010, 05:58 PM	#12
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	Since the last time this topic cropped up I found another photo of an original ingot, and a good illustration or two of the crucibles used to make them (which, of course, define the shape of the ingot ). The easy diagnostic feature on ingots is going to be some evidence of a former meniscus (that curve of the surface that contained liquids have near the edge) where the liquid steel met the crucible wall...here are two real ingots, three crucible shapes and some steel shot from a ball mill, you can see the complete lack of similarity! Attached Images

1st March 2010, 05:42 PM	#14
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Wootz or Mill balls, open questions. This is not an attempt to prove that these are wootz ingot or mill balls. It was discussed many times in several forums so I will leave it to the expert to decide. But since I was offering for sale few of these wootz/mill balls I feel I should share with you some facts and findings I sacrificed one of this balls and submitted it to the good hands of Giora Biran, a blacksmith and a friend and this is what we have done: The ball was cut into two halves with a disk and one of the faces flattened. (Please note the crack in the center, also known as “pipe”. I will refer to it later.) One half was heated to about 800 degrees and hammered down (in several heating cycles) to a flat bar shape: One face was polished and etched to reveal a very clear pattern: A small part of the bar was further forged to a small kitchen style blade (more and bigger blades are being worked out now), polished and etched:

1st March 2010, 05:44 PM	#15
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Wootz or Mill balls, open questions (cont.). The Facts: 1)These balls are definitely coming from India. They are supposedly coming from an old armory but I can not substantiate it. 2) In the pile of several tenth balls that I have seen, many were of quite a symmetrical shape, few of non regular shape and all has the depression on one side. The findings: 1) These balls were cast in a crucible. The depression and the “pipe” seen on the cut ball is very typical to what happens in the cooling process in the crucible.[br] 2) It is hard steel. We did not measured the exact hardness but Giora estimate it to be (after hardening) around 60 3) The pattern is clear and very similar to what we have seen on Old Indian wootz blades. The open questions: 1) To start with, why to use cast steel ball for milling? It is far more common to use white cast iron for this task. It has a harder shell and it is definitely cheaper. The milling process require hundreds of balls, so all were cast each in a separate crucible ?? It is quite expensive. 2) In the early 20th C. (the age suggested in a previous thread for this balls) perfect shape balls were easily available, from a variety of materials and sizes. So again why to use crucible cast steel balls? 3) After a short while in the drum the mill balls will definitely get a non regular shape (but will never have the depressions we see here). In the pile of balls I have seen most of the balls had a perfect symmetrical shape. Does this mean that they are all un-used? Below is a photo of two mill balls I personally collected from an abandoned lime stone quarry (abandoned in the 50th). They are made of cast white iron and has the typical shape after use [br] 4) The chemical composition of the balls may be a key to answer many of the questions. I am planning to do it and I will gladly report further findings p.s: I had a private correspondence with Jeff Pringle regarding this issue. We are not in agreement and I hope he will post here his opinion.

15th February 2010, 02:22 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	For some reason this link does not work.....

15th February 2010, 09:45 AM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The link works on my computer, but should it not work on yours try to search for 'mill balls'.

15th February 2010, 11:24 AM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	works on mine as well. Excellent info. Thanks Jens for posting

15th February 2010, 06:02 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Rick, thank you for fixing the problem . Alex, thank you for your answer - and remember whatever you buy - be careful.

15th February 2010, 06:34 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Ok now it works - thank you.

15th February 2010, 06:50 PM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Thanks again, Jens. I never considered buying the ingots. Too much uncertainty and lack of evidences of origin and authenticity. I think that buying based on "because it looks like wootz ingot" is not good enough... the same is true even for finished, end result products:-)

16th February 2010, 01:32 AM	#9
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thank you Jens for keeping the awarness of this subject in high visibility for those that seek the truth of some of the stranger pieces we see out in the commercial world. Spiral

16th February 2010, 02:15 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	I agree with these observations, and thank you Jens for posting this! I know little of wootz and its esoterica, but very much agree with caveats. Something like these unusual ingots or mill balls or whatever the case may be, really should have some sort of accredited authentication. It seems that many times I have seen items listed as varying sorts of rare antiquity, which have turned out to be very ordinary items of far more recent age. I look forward to hearing more on how this type of metal object can be tested and the outcome. All best regards, Jim

16th February 2010, 04:36 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gene, Jonathan and Jim, Thank you for your posts. I have only seen ingots/mill balls on pictures, so I am not the right one to answer what exactly they look like, so I think Gene should ask Ann what it is. I have however seen the mill balls described like this. “If it has a spherical, or nearly so, form, have a smooth surface then it is very unlikely that it is an ingot.” If you go to the link above and read post 37 Jeff Pringle gives some of the answer. Here is a short quote, “All steels solidify with a dendritic structure, not just wootz, so that is irrelevant but often comes up because people first hear of crystalline dendrites in steel via wootz.” Jim, I don’t know what a test would cost, the only thing I have heard is, that it takes some hours of work, so it may be as expensive as the item in question. Jens

17th February 2010, 06:08 PM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Jeff, Thank you very much for your post and the pictures. Form this, there is no doubt what mill balls look like, so you have cleared that problem very well - once an for all . Jens