Montagnard Dha tribal association?

AzurePark · 29th December 2016, 12:39 AM

Dear all,

This is my first post on these forums, so please correct my behavior if I do anything out of protocol. I am a graduate student working on a Master's Degree, and only a beginner when it comes to ethnographic weapons. I am working on a catalog entry for this sword and associated note, which I unfortunately have not had opportunity to personally examine yet. It is in the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Collection in Landover, MD, where they store everything that has been deposited in front of the wall of names at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington D.C.

Sword and note dedicated to Sgt. William Thornhill
VIVE 8987 (Sword), VIVE 8988 (Note)
Sword, before 1968; Note, March 21, 1993
Sword and fittings: Steel, copper alloy, wood, cane; Note: paper
(BLADE) L 62, W 4 cm (HILT) L 29.5, W 4 cm (SHEATH) L 57.7, W 7, TH 1 cm
Note reads: “In memory of Sgt. William J. Thornhill N.Y. Given to Him by Montagnard Chieftain 1968”

It was left in front of Thornhill's name on panel 40 E. Sgt. Thornhill was a member of BDQ advisory team 31 , which was attached to the Biệt Động Quân or ARVN rangers. His last tour of duty began in November 1967, and was cut short when he was killed in Phuoc Long Province by hostile small arms fire on February 18, 1968. Therefore, going by the note, he must have received it between January and February of that year. His records are here on the virtual wall.

I have no knowledge about which Montagnard/Degar tribes inhabited Phuoc Long province at that time, nor who could identify any distinguishing features of tribal or regional identification on this sword. Heck, I don't even know how to tell if this is a Thai knockoff or something. Can anybody help me contact an expert or locate a useful source, that is unless anyone knows off the top of their head what it is? I got a ton of photographs, so I'll start with the overall picture and let you guys tell me which parts you want close-ups on.

All photographs were taken by curator Janet Donlin at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Collection, and are copyright of the National Park Service.

ariel · 29th December 2016, 05:14 AM

AFAIK , Montagnard swords, while quite similar to the Thai and Burmese examples, were characterized by unusually long handles and tsuba-like miniature handguards.

I can't see either on this example.

Jim McDougall · 29th December 2016, 05:47 AM

Welcome to our forum, and thank you for sharing this interesting and poignant example honoring this officer, and I hope we can find some information which might provide better identifying background.
What I can say is that regionally or tribally classifying these weapons attributed to the Montagnard groups is challenging. This term is of course broadly applied to the tribes of Viet Nam highlands and neighboring areas.

The areas in Phuoc Long province had been severely devastated and tribes relocated for years since early 1960s and the tribes of these regions numbered around a dozen or more. Since the document is of course vague in noting more on the chieftain, it is hard to say more. However, I would note that the diffusion and cross influences in these areas would be diverse especially given the volatile circumstances of these times.

I once acquired a dha which was a weapon brought back from Viet Nam in the late 1960s, and while its handle was quite plain, the blade had a very similar radius in its profile. It is was Montagnard, and from a Hmong tribe situated more in Laotian border areas. I had it examined by Hmong elders through a University professor researching these tribal groups, who seeing markings on the blade confirmed it was 'one of thiers'. I also had that confirmed by a Viet Nam officer who had served with these groups in the early 1960s.

While the peaked dome pommel is unusual, as far as I can recall, this one is very similar to the one I had. I may be able to find more notes, but in the meantime I hope others will respond. We have some very knowledgeable guys here on dhas, so hope they will come in.

Ian · 29th December 2016, 06:40 AM

AzurePark:

Thank you for bringing this interesting sword to our attention. The blade and hilt of the sword suggest that it is from N. Thailand/Laos. The scabbard is rather nondescript, but also consistent with that general area. It is a cut above the usual village quality Montagnard swords which have, as Ariel noted, a hilt to blade length ratio of about 1:1 and a blade terminus that widens but is less rounded than this example.

By way of example of the more usual forms of Montagnard daab, I have attached two swords that were exhibited at the Macao Museum of Art "History of Steel in East Asia." The images of these swords are taken from the exhibition's web site where you will find further examples of Burmese and Thai swords.

The third picture below with the black background is a sword of mine that shows a N. Thai/Lao daab, probably from the 19th C or perhaps earlier. The hilt has some similarities to the one you show.

As to the age of your sword, it is hard to judge without having it in hand. The style, however, is quite old and the bronze/brass hilt suggests to me it is at least 19th C. This is not your every day Montagnard work sword, but one of some distinction and probably an heirloom that was highly valued by its indigenous owner. Such a sword may well have been owned by an influential Montagnard chief. The gift of such a sword would have reflected the esteem in which the recipient, Sgt Thornhill, was held by the chief.

Thank you again for sharing this interesting sword and its story.

Ian.

Sajen · 29th December 2016, 11:17 AM

Hello AzurePark,

agree with Ian that it a Lao daab and minimum a 19th century sword. Keep in mind that the today borders are different from the past ones. See here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=laos for a very similar sword from my own collection.
And welcome to the forum!

Regards,
Detlef

Ian · 29th December 2016, 11:56 AM

AzurePark:

You mention other photos that you have of this sword. I would be interested to see what you have of the multisection hilt. In my experience these hilts were usually made in two or three parts, but I cannot make out how many are actually present here. The decoration of the hilt with geometric designs would also be of interest, with more close up pictures. Lastly, if you could post pictures of the blade, particularly the edge to see if it is hardened, and of any distinguishing marks on the blade (although I'm not expecting there will be any to be found).

Regards,

Ian

AzurePark · 29th December 2016, 07:28 PM

Thank you everybody, I'm so glad that this much information can be determined!

At Ian's request I'm putting up more hilt photographs.

29th December 2016, 12:39 AM	#1
AzurePark Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 6	Montagnard Dha tribal association? Dear all, This is my first post on these forums, so please correct my behavior if I do anything out of protocol. I am a graduate student working on a Master's Degree, and only a beginner when it comes to ethnographic weapons. I am working on a catalog entry for this sword and associated note, which I unfortunately have not had opportunity to personally examine yet. It is in the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Collection in Landover, MD, where they store everything that has been deposited in front of the wall of names at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington D.C. Sword and note dedicated to Sgt. William Thornhill VIVE 8987 (Sword), VIVE 8988 (Note) Sword, before 1968; Note, March 21, 1993 Sword and fittings: Steel, copper alloy, wood, cane; Note: paper (BLADE) L 62, W 4 cm (HILT) L 29.5, W 4 cm (SHEATH) L 57.7, W 7, TH 1 cm Note reads: “In memory of Sgt. William J. Thornhill N.Y. Given to Him by Montagnard Chieftain 1968” It was left in front of Thornhill's name on panel 40 E. Sgt. Thornhill was a member of BDQ advisory team 31 , which was attached to the Biệt Động Quân or ARVN rangers. His last tour of duty began in November 1967, and was cut short when he was killed in Phuoc Long Province by hostile small arms fire on February 18, 1968. Therefore, going by the note, he must have received it between January and February of that year. His records are here on the virtual wall. I have no knowledge about which Montagnard/Degar tribes inhabited Phuoc Long province at that time, nor who could identify any distinguishing features of tribal or regional identification on this sword. Heck, I don't even know how to tell if this is a Thai knockoff or something. Can anybody help me contact an expert or locate a useful source, that is unless anyone knows off the top of their head what it is? I got a ton of photographs, so I'll start with the overall picture and let you guys tell me which parts you want close-ups on. All photographs were taken by curator Janet Donlin at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Collection, and are copyright of the National Park Service. Attached Images

29th December 2016, 06:40 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,204	AzurePark: Thank you for bringing this interesting sword to our attention. The blade and hilt of the sword suggest that it is from N. Thailand/Laos. The scabbard is rather nondescript, but also consistent with that general area. It is a cut above the usual village quality Montagnard swords which have, as Ariel noted, a hilt to blade length ratio of about 1:1 and a blade terminus that widens but is less rounded than this example. By way of example of the more usual forms of Montagnard daab, I have attached two swords that were exhibited at the Macao Museum of Art "History of Steel in East Asia." The images of these swords are taken from the exhibition's web site where you will find further examples of Burmese and Thai swords. The third picture below with the black background is a sword of mine that shows a N. Thai/Lao daab, probably from the 19th C or perhaps earlier. The hilt has some similarities to the one you show. As to the age of your sword, it is hard to judge without having it in hand. The style, however, is quite old and the bronze/brass hilt suggests to me it is at least 19th C. This is not your every day Montagnard work sword, but one of some distinction and probably an heirloom that was highly valued by its indigenous owner. Such a sword may well have been owned by an influential Montagnard chief. The gift of such a sword would have reflected the esteem in which the recipient, Sgt Thornhill, was held by the chief. Thank you again for sharing this interesting sword and its story. Ian. Attached Images

29th December 2016, 11:56 AM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,204	AzurePark: You mention other photos that you have of this sword. I would be interested to see what you have of the multisection hilt. In my experience these hilts were usually made in two or three parts, but I cannot make out how many are actually present here. The decoration of the hilt with geometric designs would also be of interest, with more close up pictures. Lastly, if you could post pictures of the blade, particularly the edge to see if it is hardened, and of any distinguishing marks on the blade (although I'm not expecting there will be any to be found). Regards, Ian Last edited by Ian; 29th December 2016 at 01:40 PM.

29th December 2016, 07:28 PM	#7
AzurePark Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 6	Thank you everybody, I'm so glad that this much information can be determined! At Ian's request I'm putting up more hilt photographs. Attached Images

29th December 2016, 05:14 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	AFAIK , Montagnard swords, while quite similar to the Thai and Burmese examples, were characterized by unusually long handles and tsuba-like miniature handguards. I can't see either on this example.

29th December 2016, 05:47 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	Welcome to our forum, and thank you for sharing this interesting and poignant example honoring this officer, and I hope we can find some information which might provide better identifying background. What I can say is that regionally or tribally classifying these weapons attributed to the Montagnard groups is challenging. This term is of course broadly applied to the tribes of Viet Nam highlands and neighboring areas. The areas in Phuoc Long province had been severely devastated and tribes relocated for years since early 1960s and the tribes of these regions numbered around a dozen or more. Since the document is of course vague in noting more on the chieftain, it is hard to say more. However, I would note that the diffusion and cross influences in these areas would be diverse especially given the volatile circumstances of these times. I once acquired a dha which was a weapon brought back from Viet Nam in the late 1960s, and while its handle was quite plain, the blade had a very similar radius in its profile. It is was Montagnard, and from a Hmong tribe situated more in Laotian border areas. I had it examined by Hmong elders through a University professor researching these tribal groups, who seeing markings on the blade confirmed it was 'one of thiers'. I also had that confirmed by a Viet Nam officer who had served with these groups in the early 1960s. While the peaked dome pommel is unusual, as far as I can recall, this one is very similar to the one I had. I may be able to find more notes, but in the meantime I hope others will respond. We have some very knowledgeable guys here on dhas, so hope they will come in.

29th December 2016, 11:17 AM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,788	Hello AzurePark, agree with Ian that it a Lao daab and minimum a 19th century sword. Keep in mind that the today borders are different from the past ones. See here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=laos for a very similar sword from my own collection. And welcome to the forum! Regards, Detlef