Opinions on this sword

M ELEY · 28th August 2009, 07:00 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

On my meager budget, decided to bid on this old piece. What attracted me to it was its primitive construction and iron-ribbed grip on the hilt. IMHO, I suspect that its Spanish colonial, blacksmith-made. The bent iron stirrup bar hilt places it late 18th/early 19th. Ribbed iron grips like this also appeared in this time frame and were associated with boarding cutlasses and such (the M1803 started this patterning and numerous "private purchase" sea service swords copied the ribbed iron grip pattern in numerous ways). As far as I'm aware, no swords prior to the late 1790's had swords with ribbed iron, but that is why I'm posting this- to see if anyone knows of any examples I am unaware of?
Likewise, I know there's not a ton of proof that this is a naval piece (primitive iron, ribbed grip, darkened patina from salt corrosion, perhaps?

), but I think it's a strong possibility. Opinions?

Jim McDougall · 28th August 2009, 08:10 AM

Hi Mark,
Nice acquisition!!! and extremely interesting. I think most of your observations are pretty well placed, and would agree with the period end of 18th c. to opening of 19th. This gives every impression of a private purchase hanger that reflects the construction style and features of the early British cutlasses and customs and other type service departments, from what I recall.
It does seem to be simply fashioned in almost 'blacksmith' grade, and the elements of the hilt are much lighter and less defined than the usual products. What strikes me as Spanish colonial is the blade, which has the characteristic uptick of the blade point as often seen on espada anchas of the end of the 18th century and into the 19th , this one more dramatic. The hilt however does not correspond to the usual guards on these, but leans more toward the British style. It is always tempting to consider another entry among the widening array of anomalies that seem to be associated with the "Spanish Main' of the Caribbean and Americas of this period.

I'll look forward to other observations while the research continues, and again, I really like these kinds of swords!! Look forward to learning more on this one.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 28th August 2009, 11:00 AM

Hello Jim! Thanks for coming in on this one. I see your point about the squared hilt being more toward the British pattern. I know this piece is a little rustic, but these private purchase types always attract my attention. Carribean...ahhh, now that would make me happy if it could be substantiated. I recall seeing a very primitive type sword similar to this listed as 'Cuban pirate', but that was in one of Fagan's catalogs, so...

Jim, you mention customs swords and police swords, which also had the ribbed iron grips such as boarding cutlass. I have a theory that these swords, which came after the said naval patterns, descended from them in an interesting way. In Annis 'Swords for Sea Service', there is an early cutlass with ribbed iron hilt and GR markings that was used by the West India dock authorities who guarded the ships and port. These authorities were both a division of maritime/naval power as well as the police/customs inspectors for the dock yards. I think it stands to reason that this is why we see the ribbed iron hilts on these type swords in the later 19th century. In any case, hope to research this sword a little more and await comments from others.

Gavin Nugent · 29th August 2009, 11:34 AM

Mark, Jim,

Far outside my scope of knowledge, but the blade in my limited knowledge of this unusual sword, almost has an oriental feel to it.
The tip looks like some naginata and the blade of the profile and diamond section looks like old line drawings of Chinese swords I have viewed.

My 2 cents.

Gav

M ELEY · 29th August 2009, 12:54 PM

Hello Gavin and thanks for commenting. It does indeed have an Oriental look to it and I'm sure that's why the seller was told by antiques dealers that it was "Middle Eastern". Having now received the blade, I still feel that it's probably Spanish colonial. The primitive wrought iron is thicker and thinner in places as it runs to the tip. Not to insult it, but the whole sword is "clunky" and hard to swing. I think it's just a made-from-scratch piece that some desparate pirate had made to attack ships with (Sorry, couldn't resist-

).
Jim, you mentioned the square iron guard being of the British pattern while the blade does indeed resemble some espada I have seen. Being that the West Indies both fell under these two countries influence, I wonder if this might be a combination of styles. Just a theory without proof, of course. For all I know, Gav might be right and this might be something else entirely.

Does anyone know when ribbed iron hilts such as this started? I'm again thinking late 18th and with the advent of boarding cutlass, but perhaps there are earlier examples?

Gavin Nugent · 29th August 2009, 01:29 PM

Just future proofing this post with some images of the sword

Gav

28th August 2009, 07:00 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,094	Opinions on this sword http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT On my meager budget, decided to bid on this old piece. What attracted me to it was its primitive construction and iron-ribbed grip on the hilt. IMHO, I suspect that its Spanish colonial, blacksmith-made. The bent iron stirrup bar hilt places it late 18th/early 19th. Ribbed iron grips like this also appeared in this time frame and were associated with boarding cutlasses and such (the M1803 started this patterning and numerous "private purchase" sea service swords copied the ribbed iron grip pattern in numerous ways). As far as I'm aware, no swords prior to the late 1790's had swords with ribbed iron, but that is why I'm posting this- to see if anyone knows of any examples I am unaware of? Likewise, I know there's not a ton of proof that this is a naval piece (primitive iron, ribbed grip, darkened patina from salt corrosion, perhaps? ), but I think it's a strong possibility. Opinions? Last edited by M ELEY; 28th August 2009 at 07:16 AM.

29th August 2009, 11:34 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Interesting Mark, Jim, Far outside my scope of knowledge, but the blade in my limited knowledge of this unusual sword, almost has an oriental feel to it. The tip looks like some naginata and the blade of the profile and diamond section looks like old line drawings of Chinese swords I have viewed. My 2 cents. Gav

29th August 2009, 01:29 PM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Some images Just future proofing this post with some images of the sword Gav Attached Images

28th August 2009, 08:10 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hi Mark, Nice acquisition!!! and extremely interesting. I think most of your observations are pretty well placed, and would agree with the period end of 18th c. to opening of 19th. This gives every impression of a private purchase hanger that reflects the construction style and features of the early British cutlasses and customs and other type service departments, from what I recall. It does seem to be simply fashioned in almost 'blacksmith' grade, and the elements of the hilt are much lighter and less defined than the usual products. What strikes me as Spanish colonial is the blade, which has the characteristic uptick of the blade point as often seen on espada anchas of the end of the 18th century and into the 19th , this one more dramatic. The hilt however does not correspond to the usual guards on these, but leans more toward the British style. It is always tempting to consider another entry among the widening array of anomalies that seem to be associated with the "Spanish Main' of the Caribbean and Americas of this period. I'll look forward to other observations while the research continues, and again, I really like these kinds of swords!! Look forward to learning more on this one. All the best, Jim

28th August 2009, 11:00 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,094	Hello Jim! Thanks for coming in on this one. I see your point about the squared hilt being more toward the British pattern. I know this piece is a little rustic, but these private purchase types always attract my attention. Carribean...ahhh, now that would make me happy if it could be substantiated. I recall seeing a very primitive type sword similar to this listed as 'Cuban pirate', but that was in one of Fagan's catalogs, so... Jim, you mention customs swords and police swords, which also had the ribbed iron grips such as boarding cutlass. I have a theory that these swords, which came after the said naval patterns, descended from them in an interesting way. In Annis 'Swords for Sea Service', there is an early cutlass with ribbed iron hilt and GR markings that was used by the West India dock authorities who guarded the ships and port. These authorities were both a division of maritime/naval power as well as the police/customs inspectors for the dock yards. I think it stands to reason that this is why we see the ribbed iron hilts on these type swords in the later 19th century. In any case, hope to research this sword a little more and await comments from others.

29th August 2009, 12:54 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,094	Hello Gavin and thanks for commenting. It does indeed have an Oriental look to it and I'm sure that's why the seller was told by antiques dealers that it was "Middle Eastern". Having now received the blade, I still feel that it's probably Spanish colonial. The primitive wrought iron is thicker and thinner in places as it runs to the tip. Not to insult it, but the whole sword is "clunky" and hard to swing. I think it's just a made-from-scratch piece that some desparate pirate had made to attack ships with (Sorry, couldn't resist- ). Jim, you mentioned the square iron guard being of the British pattern while the blade does indeed resemble some espada I have seen. Being that the West Indies both fell under these two countries influence, I wonder if this might be a combination of styles. Just a theory without proof, of course. For all I know, Gav might be right and this might be something else entirely. Does anyone know when ribbed iron hilts such as this started? I'm again thinking late 18th and with the advent of boarding cutlass, but perhaps there are earlier examples?