Crusiform bladed Dagger E Bay

archer · 14th November 2010, 02:59 AM

What is this dagger called? What is its' origin? There is a dragon and a wood spirit-like Head used as some of the decoration. Fluted blade is 47/8 inches overall length is 85/8 inches. It sold for $676.00.
Thanks, Steve

Robert · 14th November 2010, 03:45 AM

Hello Archer,
I too was watching this dagger on epray. I am no expert by any means but to me it looks to be French. The Green Man and the European winged dragon make me think that the engraving could be English. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will be along shortly to give a real answer as to where it is actually from. Sorry about the picture quality as I'm not very good at this.

Robert

laEspadaAncha · 14th November 2010, 04:19 AM

Good call on the Green Man observation. Given the pagan / Celtic imagery (which while commonly associated with Celtic neopagan practices in the UK, was also known in Continental Europe), maybe it's an athame? I find the quality pieces with imagery associated with the wiccan religion usually command a good price.

Jim McDougall · 14th November 2010, 06:37 AM

This interesting little dagger is most likely a Victorian interpretation of the medieval dagger known as the misericorde. Essentially it was known as the 'dagger of mercy'. These narrow bladed daggers were meant to pierce vulnerable spots in armor to dispatch hopelessly wounded knights to save thier suffering and often used in close quarters combat similarly, though the veracity of such use of these may be largely myth.

This motif is intriguing as the 'green man' is indeed a pagan device, but was used a great deal in ecclesiastical architecture and motif, and particularly in the Victorian period during the neo Gothic revival trend. It apparantly was often seen used on the bottom of folding seats in churches which were termed the 'misericorde' (=mercy seat)as it provided support and some comfort for worshippers during long periods of standing during services.

The green man symbolism is thought to represent rebirth or revival, and it is interesting to see the 'misericorde' concept occur on these seats as well as on this 'mercy dagger'. The floral motif usually consists of leaves, which is presumably where the 'green' term applies. Interestingly the dragon, in chivalric legend is sometimes seen as a symbol of resurrection and of renaissance, particularly in the Golden Fleece legends. It may also be seen as a symbol of prudence.

It would be hard to say what purpose this dagger might have been intended to serve, but it seems extremely well made, and certainly would correspond with Victorian interest in legends of chivalry and the weapons used.

All the best,
Jim

archer · 14th November 2010, 07:06 AM

Hi, Thanks, my thought was that more than one thread on past forums dealt with the Green Man in several cultures. Try as i might searches came up without any information. Steve

David · 14th November 2010, 02:43 PM

Wow, that's a beautiful dagger.
Thanks Jim, for mentioning the use of the Green Man in churches throughout the British Isles. While this doesn't discount a pure pagan reference it shows the complexities of how pagan beliefs and lore linger in societies well after they turn for the most part to Christianity or other religions (you can still find many ancient pre-Islamic and even pre-Hindu beliefs still operating in Indonesia).
That said we can easily find strong pagan reference to both the Green Man and the Dragon, though i would say that it is more likely that this dagger was not designed as a ritual athame. One can also find strong references to Arthurian legend in these symbols. I am inclined to think this an English dagger.
This book might be interesting.

archer · 20th November 2010, 02:09 AM

Thank you all for the information. I liked it and wanted to bid early on:but, it was much too puzzling. Thanks, Steve

David · 20th November 2010, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer

Thank you all for the information. I liked it and wanted to bid early on:but, it was much too puzzling. Thanks, Steve

Ah yes Steve, but sometimes you just gotta go with your gut, the puzzles be damned!

....of course it would have been a wee chunk o' change you would have had to lay down for the right to handle that puzzle so i can understand you hesitance. ...still i'm will to bet this blade feels really nice in the hand...

Rick · 20th November 2010, 03:48 AM

I would like to get this one niggling question straight .

The thread title says 'Cruciform' ; correct ?

Pardon me if I assume the blade of this implement has 4 edges rather than the three edges mentioned in a post earlier on .

Just to get things straight about this piece for the record .

Four edges to the blade; "cruciform" or not ?

Or is it three edges ?
Please, who has the answer ?

Rick

laEspadaAncha · 20th November 2010, 04:05 AM

Hi Rick,

A "cruciform" cross section would indeed indicate a hollow-ground, four-sided blade.

Robert · 20th November 2010, 07:38 AM

Yes, A very nice little dagger with a four sided blade. Still looks French to me. Imagine if you would, someone in France on the Grand Tour sees a dagger in a cutlers shop and decides to purchase it for themselves or someone they know. Dagger is brought back to England and taken to the engravers for a little embellishment. Owner looks at the engravers work book and says "I like this design, can you do this on my dagger?" engraver, not a problem. 150 years or more later, major problems on this forum. Just an idea out of left field.

Robert

14th November 2010, 02:59 AM	#1
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Crusiform bladed Dagger E Bay What is this dagger called? What is its' origin? There is a dragon and a wood spirit-like Head used as some of the decoration. Fluted blade is 47/8 inches overall length is 85/8 inches. It sold for $676.00. Thanks, Steve Attached Images

14th November 2010, 03:45 AM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Archer, I too was watching this dagger on epray. I am no expert by any means but to me it looks to be French. The Green Man and the European winged dragon make me think that the engraving could be English. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will be along shortly to give a real answer as to where it is actually from. Sorry about the picture quality as I'm not very good at this. Robert Attached Images Last edited by Robert Coleman; 14th November 2010 at 04:08 AM.

14th November 2010, 07:06 AM	#5
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	reply Hi, Thanks, my thought was that more than one thread on past forums dealt with the Green Man in several cultures. Try as i might searches came up without any information. Steve

14th November 2010, 02:43 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Wow, that's a beautiful dagger. Thanks Jim, for mentioning the use of the Green Man in churches throughout the British Isles. While this doesn't discount a pure pagan reference it shows the complexities of how pagan beliefs and lore linger in societies well after they turn for the most part to Christianity or other religions (you can still find many ancient pre-Islamic and even pre-Hindu beliefs still operating in Indonesia). That said we can easily find strong pagan reference to both the Green Man and the Dragon, though i would say that it is more likely that this dagger was not designed as a ritual athame. One can also find strong references to Arthurian legend in these symbols. I am inclined to think this an English dagger. This book might be interesting. Attached Images

20th November 2010, 02:09 AM	#7
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Thanks Thank you all for the information. I liked it and wanted to bid early on:but, it was much too puzzling. Thanks, Steve

14th November 2010, 04:19 AM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Good call on the Green Man observation. Given the pagan / Celtic imagery (which while commonly associated with Celtic neopagan practices in the UK, was also known in Continental Europe), maybe it's an athame? I find the quality pieces with imagery associated with the wiccan religion usually command a good price.

14th November 2010, 06:37 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	This interesting little dagger is most likely a Victorian interpretation of the medieval dagger known as the misericorde. Essentially it was known as the 'dagger of mercy'. These narrow bladed daggers were meant to pierce vulnerable spots in armor to dispatch hopelessly wounded knights to save thier suffering and often used in close quarters combat similarly, though the veracity of such use of these may be largely myth. This motif is intriguing as the 'green man' is indeed a pagan device, but was used a great deal in ecclesiastical architecture and motif, and particularly in the Victorian period during the neo Gothic revival trend. It apparantly was often seen used on the bottom of folding seats in churches which were termed the 'misericorde' (=mercy seat)as it provided support and some comfort for worshippers during long periods of standing during services. The green man symbolism is thought to represent rebirth or revival, and it is interesting to see the 'misericorde' concept occur on these seats as well as on this 'mercy dagger'. The floral motif usually consists of leaves, which is presumably where the 'green' term applies. Interestingly the dragon, in chivalric legend is sometimes seen as a symbol of resurrection and of renaissance, particularly in the Golden Fleece legends. It may also be seen as a symbol of prudence. It would be hard to say what purpose this dagger might have been intended to serve, but it seems extremely well made, and certainly would correspond with Victorian interest in legends of chivalry and the weapons used. All the best, Jim

20th November 2010, 03:48 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I would like to get this one niggling question straight . The thread title says 'Cruciform' ; correct ? Pardon me if I assume the blade of this implement has 4 edges rather than the three edges mentioned in a post earlier on . Just to get things straight about this piece for the record . Four edges to the blade; "cruciform" or not ? Or is it three edges ? Please, who has the answer ? Rick

20th November 2010, 04:05 AM	#10
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Rick, A "cruciform" cross section would indeed indicate a hollow-ground, four-sided blade.

20th November 2010, 07:38 AM	#11
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Yes, A very nice little dagger with a four sided blade. Still looks French to me. Imagine if you would, someone in France on the Grand Tour sees a dagger in a cutlers shop and decides to purchase it for themselves or someone they know. Dagger is brought back to England and taken to the engravers for a little embellishment. Owner looks at the engravers work book and says "I like this design, can you do this on my dagger?" engraver, not a problem. 150 years or more later, major problems on this forum. Just an idea out of left field. Robert