Old keris Iron Vs modern keris

Pusaka · 12th November 2005, 12:37 PM

I have noticed that old keris blades are sharper then modern keris made with modern steel. They also hold an edge far longer then modern steel keris. I have also noticed that they are less prone to rusting then modern blades. An example is I have a very old keris blade which shows no sign of rust but my new keris blade which is perhaps 15 years old has very small spots of rust forming already.
My old keris is very light and razor sharp, I have never sharpened it with no signs of rust but my modern keris is heavy blunt and as I said has signs of rust. I know which one I prefer but why can’t a modern keris worker produce something better then the old keris workers considering the advancements in technology?
I have noticed also that modern keris are silver in colour first and then dyed black to bring up the pamor whilst old keris used a dark Iron which contrasted with the pamor. The thing is that if you sharpen a dyed keris the dye will rub off revealing the silver metal underneath and you will need to dye it again. As far as I know old keris had black Iron so even if you sharpen it the keris will still be black at the edge because it was the Iron it was made from which was black not a coating of black dye. I have to say I don’t like these modern dyed blades.
Have you also noticed how old keris have a slightly rough grainy (open pore) Iron which soaks up the keris oil when you apply it whilst modern keris have a smooth tight surface, if you apply oil it just sits on the surface and dose not seam to penetrate the blade.

I would be very grateful if some of you with knowledge of keris could inform me of the source of this old material from which the blades were made as I feel it is far superior to modern steel keris. Also which empu still use the old traditional methods and materials for making keris blades because if I was going to have a blade made I would not want it made from modern steel using modern methods.

Rick · 12th November 2005, 04:25 PM

I'll offer a couple of pointers ; you don't sharpen an Indo-Malay 'keris' .

They are essentially for stabbing ; a 'bent elbow' weapon , having said that ; there are probably always exceptions in real hand to hand fighting .

If your new keris is rusting then it is most likely because you are not maintaining it properly .

Your old keris is thinner because of repeated washings in Warangan during Muharram ; if it is centuries old then a lot of the original material has been lost due to this process .

Below is an example of the results of a few hundred years of washing ; the parallel lines running down the blade are strands of the base iron .

A forum search using 'keris' will give you a LOT of information .
The search function can be found at the top right hand corner of the page .

We have a lot of keris enthusiasts here ; enjoy !

Pusaka · 12th November 2005, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I'll offer a couple of pointers ; you don't sharpen an Indo-Malay 'keris' .

They are essentially for stabbing ; a 'bent elbow' weapon , having said that ; there are probably always exceptions in real hand to hand fighting .

If your new keris is rusting then it is most likely because you are not maintaining it properly .

Your old keris is thinner because of repeated washings in Warangan during Muharram ; if it is centuries old then a lot of the original material has been lost due to this process .

Below is an example of the results of a few hundred years of washing ; the parallel lines running down the blade are strands of the base iron .

A forum search using 'keris' will give you a LOT of information .
The search function can be found at the top right hand corner of the page .

We have a lot of keris enthusiasts here ; enjoy !

Why is the Iron black?? if you look at a modern keris like the one I seen on this forum (bellow) it is silver as we would expect since it is steel but my old keris is black like the one in your photo but it is not dye, the Iron is black

nechesh · 12th November 2005, 05:23 PM

Welcome to the forum Pusaka.I would concur with Rick and would add a few more items. Firstly, as in the past with old keris, there are all levels of quality to be found in new keris. I have seen new keris which are at the highest level of keris making both technologically and artistically. Of course they cost more than a couple of hundred dollars.
The iron in certain old blades is prized for it's quality. However, i am unaware of there being "black" iron. All keris that have the pamor pattern raised with the iron black get that way through a staining process which uses arsernic to stain the iron black while leaving the nickelous pamor material silvery or gray. Traditionally this was a process which was done on a yearly basis yielding the results you see in Ricks example.
As Rick points out, you should NEVER sharpen a keris blade unless your aim is to ruin it.You will find that many are sharp in varying degrees, but the keris is essentially a stabbing weapon. I suppose the majority of new blades aren't made sharp because they are no longer intented to act as a weapon. But i am sure that many of the higher quality new blades would hold an edge just fine if they have one.
You will find that there are VERY few actual empus left in Indonesia. There are many talented smiths. Commissioning a blade from someone like empu Djeno (even he only supervises as his apprentices do the work) would be a fairly pricey affair and would probably take a couple of years at least. Sometime new blades are made from melting down out blades, but i am not sure this would give you a higher quality product in the end.

nechesh · 12th November 2005, 05:36 PM

Pusaka, i would image that if you ever (heaven forbid

) were to cut your old blade in half you would discover that it 's core is not black like the surface. You blade just has the remnants of it's last arsenic treatment.

nechesh · 12th November 2005, 08:01 PM

One other thing, it would be good if we qualified our terms here since each person tends to have a different idea on the subject. What do you mean when you refer to "modern" keris? The example you posted from a previous thread, for instance, is an antique blade, probably made in the late 19th century. While i don't consider this an ancient keris i don't call it modern either. That term i personally reserve for keris made post WWII up until the present.

Pusaka · 12th November 2005, 08:55 PM

Personally anything 100 years old or less is modern but I know this will be different for each person.

Can someone please explain what Pamor Sanak, Pamor Luwu and Keleng are.
Also I remember reading somewhere that old empus used to use 7 metals to construct a blade, has anyone else heard this?

Kiai Carita · 14th November 2005, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

One other thing, it would be good if we qualified our terms here since each person tends to have a different idea on the subject. What do you mean when you refer to "modern" keris? The example you posted from a previous thread, for instance, is an antique blade, probably made in the late 19th century. While i don't consider this an ancient keris i don't call it modern either. That term i personally reserve for keris made post WWII up until the present.

Nechesh you made an interesting statement here...may I ask why you think WWII is significant in kerisology? .... and thank you Marto Suwignyo for the further elaboration of the proces of making keris.

Thank you
KC

12th November 2005, 12:37 PM	#1
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Old keris Iron Vs modern keris I have noticed that old keris blades are sharper then modern keris made with modern steel. They also hold an edge far longer then modern steel keris. I have also noticed that they are less prone to rusting then modern blades. An example is I have a very old keris blade which shows no sign of rust but my new keris blade which is perhaps 15 years old has very small spots of rust forming already. My old keris is very light and razor sharp, I have never sharpened it with no signs of rust but my modern keris is heavy blunt and as I said has signs of rust. I know which one I prefer but why can’t a modern keris worker produce something better then the old keris workers considering the advancements in technology? I have noticed also that modern keris are silver in colour first and then dyed black to bring up the pamor whilst old keris used a dark Iron which contrasted with the pamor. The thing is that if you sharpen a dyed keris the dye will rub off revealing the silver metal underneath and you will need to dye it again. As far as I know old keris had black Iron so even if you sharpen it the keris will still be black at the edge because it was the Iron it was made from which was black not a coating of black dye. I have to say I don’t like these modern dyed blades. Have you also noticed how old keris have a slightly rough grainy (open pore) Iron which soaks up the keris oil when you apply it whilst modern keris have a smooth tight surface, if you apply oil it just sits on the surface and dose not seam to penetrate the blade. I would be very grateful if some of you with knowledge of keris could inform me of the source of this old material from which the blades were made as I feel it is far superior to modern steel keris. Also which empu still use the old traditional methods and materials for making keris blades because if I was going to have a blade made I would not want it made from modern steel using modern methods.

12th November 2005, 04:25 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Welcome To The Forum I'll offer a couple of pointers ; you don't sharpen an Indo-Malay 'keris' . They are essentially for stabbing ; a 'bent elbow' weapon , having said that ; there are probably always exceptions in real hand to hand fighting . If your new keris is rusting then it is most likely because you are not maintaining it properly . Your old keris is thinner because of repeated washings in Warangan during Muharram ; if it is centuries old then a lot of the original material has been lost due to this process . Below is an example of the results of a few hundred years of washing ; the parallel lines running down the blade are strands of the base iron . A forum search using 'keris' will give you a LOT of information . The search function can be found at the top right hand corner of the page . We have a lot of keris enthusiasts here ; enjoy ! Attached Images

12th November 2005, 05:23 PM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Welcome to the forum Pusaka.I would concur with Rick and would add a few more items. Firstly, as in the past with old keris, there are all levels of quality to be found in new keris. I have seen new keris which are at the highest level of keris making both technologically and artistically. Of course they cost more than a couple of hundred dollars. The iron in certain old blades is prized for it's quality. However, i am unaware of there being "black" iron. All keris that have the pamor pattern raised with the iron black get that way through a staining process which uses arsernic to stain the iron black while leaving the nickelous pamor material silvery or gray. Traditionally this was a process which was done on a yearly basis yielding the results you see in Ricks example. As Rick points out, you should NEVER sharpen a keris blade unless your aim is to ruin it.You will find that many are sharp in varying degrees, but the keris is essentially a stabbing weapon. I suppose the majority of new blades aren't made sharp because they are no longer intented to act as a weapon. But i am sure that many of the higher quality new blades would hold an edge just fine if they have one. You will find that there are VERY few actual empus left in Indonesia. There are many talented smiths. Commissioning a blade from someone like empu Djeno (even he only supervises as his apprentices do the work) would be a fairly pricey affair and would probably take a couple of years at least. Sometime new blades are made from melting down out blades, but i am not sure this would give you a higher quality product in the end. Last edited by nechesh; 12th November 2005 at 07:53 PM.

12th November 2005, 05:36 PM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Pusaka, i would image that if you ever (heaven forbid ) were to cut your old blade in half you would discover that it 's core is not black like the surface. You blade just has the remnants of it's last arsenic treatment.

12th November 2005, 08:01 PM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	One other thing, it would be good if we qualified our terms here since each person tends to have a different idea on the subject. What do you mean when you refer to "modern" keris? The example you posted from a previous thread, for instance, is an antique blade, probably made in the late 19th century. While i don't consider this an ancient keris i don't call it modern either. That term i personally reserve for keris made post WWII up until the present.

12th November 2005, 08:55 PM	#7
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Personally anything 100 years old or less is modern but I know this will be different for each person. Can someone please explain what Pamor Sanak, Pamor Luwu and Keleng are. Also I remember reading somewhere that old empus used to use 7 metals to construct a blade, has anyone else heard this?