Very small matchlock, any ideas?

estcrh · 19th July 2012, 02:03 PM

I am trying to get some help identifying what part of the world this small matchlock may have come from. The owner says it is about 24cm long but has no clue as to were it may have been made. To me it has the look of some matchlock rifles from India that I have seen, any thoughts?

trenchwarfare · 19th July 2012, 04:53 PM

It is in the Indo-Persian "Torador" style. Have never seen one this small before. Very cool!

Atlantia · 19th July 2012, 06:36 PM

Yup it's an Indian Torador of usual form, just really really small.
Very nice indeed!

estcrh · 20th July 2012, 05:04 AM

Thanks for the answers, I have searched every were but I can not find an image of another torador pistol.

trenchwarfare · 20th July 2012, 03:56 PM

I doubt you will find a similar weapon. Oddities are hard to find on the internet. I've only see a very few carbine length toradors. No pistols. Extremely nice piece.

Atlantia · 20th July 2012, 06:14 PM

I wouldn't call it a pistol because it has a stock not a grip. I'd liken it to the coach guns and the like.
I've had a small 'carbine' Torador before and I've seen very 'slightly' proportioned small ones described as for children.

estcrh · 1st August 2012, 05:06 AM

Well I have given up trying to find anything like this, I cant believe it is the only one in the world, there must be others in collections etc. Since it is so rare I got some additional images and the exact measurements, it is supposedly 17th century but I am not sure how this is determined, length 25cm/9.8in, caliber 14 mm/0.55 in.

fernando · 1st August 2012, 07:52 PM

Sorry for the impertinence, estcrh

Have you thoroughly checked both backsight and priming pan fixation... and the breech plug area ?
Are you sure the barrel was not cut down ?
Sure this is a 'customized' gun. The point is : is it a modified toradar or was it born like that ?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 1st August 2012, 08:26 PM

SALAAMS ALL~ Nice looking weapon. A lot of long barrels blew at the first weld caused by the use of too much gunpowder.(two shown below of the arab long barrel abu futtila type) I suspect that a number of these blown barrels were used as essentially "sawn off weapons" much in the same way that snapped swords were re used in Indian bladed weapons. I think the rear sight gives the game away and the butt which is a Torrador cut back. To me this seems to be a recycled cannon end with a re cut/ modified butt and a new foresight button. You would think that more of this design would be seen...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

estcrh · 4th August 2012, 03:02 AM

Fernando, thanks for the thoughts, I have not seen the gun in person but hopefully I will have a chance, your mention of the breech plug is interesting. I have seen several Japanese matchlock breech plugs but I could not find any torador breech plug images online, do you know of any? If and when I do get a chance to see this gun I might be able to take it apart and photograph it and try to determine if it was originally created as a pistol.

Ibrahiim, you may be right about the barrel being modified from a larger one but the fact that there is a rear sight does not necessarily mean it is a cut down barrel. Since there are no other images so far of another torador pistol to compare this one to all I can say is that all Japanese matchlock pistols I have seen including the very small ones have a rear sight and these were made as pistols for sure. I think the images I posted are misleading, from the size given I do not think the stock could be cut/ modified from a larger torador, this would be a really tiny pistol, the type you could hide in a boot etc. If I get an opportunity I will try to take a picture of this pistol next to a full size torador for comparison.

David R · 7th August 2012, 01:05 AM

The breechplugs of Indian matchlocks are heat shrunk in. The plug is made to fit, the breech heated till it expands and the plug inserted, when the barrel cools the plug is fixed. No screw thread.
Toradors seem to have been made in all sizes, so I find nothing odd in a pistol sized one, and they seem to have always been in this profile as well. So I would say, unusual but not unique.
G.C.Stone illustrates a couple of Turkish and Persian "pistols" with this stock configuration, but with Miquelet locks rather than match.
I remember a reference from somewhere that these were fired from (butted against) the thigh on horseback, rather than with an extended arm like a western pistol.
Really only handling would tell whether it was born as a pistol or retrofitted from a damaged barrel....and the latter would still be in keeping with it being a genuine piece.

19th July 2012, 02:03 PM	#1
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	Very small matchlock, any ideas? I am trying to get some help identifying what part of the world this small matchlock may have come from. The owner says it is about 24cm long but has no clue as to were it may have been made. To me it has the look of some matchlock rifles from India that I have seen, any thoughts? Attached Images

20th July 2012, 03:56 PM	#5
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	I doubt you will find a similar weapon. Oddities are hard to find on the internet. I've only see a very few carbine length toradors. No pistols. Extremely nice piece. Last edited by David; 21st July 2012 at 01:22 PM. Reason: inappropriate inquiry about sale

1st August 2012, 05:06 AM	#7
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	Well I have given up trying to find anything like this, I cant believe it is the only one in the world, there must be others in collections etc. Since it is so rare I got some additional images and the exact measurements, it is supposedly 17th century but I am not sure how this is determined, length 25cm/9.8in, caliber 14 mm/0.55 in. Attached Images

1st August 2012, 08:26 PM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	SALAAMS ALL~ Nice looking weapon. A lot of long barrels blew at the first weld caused by the use of too much gunpowder.(two shown below of the arab long barrel abu futtila type) I suspect that a number of these blown barrels were used as essentially "sawn off weapons" much in the same way that snapped swords were re used in Indian bladed weapons. I think the rear sight gives the game away and the butt which is a Torrador cut back. To me this seems to be a recycled cannon end with a re cut/ modified butt and a new foresight button. You would think that more of this design would be seen... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images

19th July 2012, 04:53 PM	#2
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	It is in the Indo-Persian "Torador" style. Have never seen one this small before. Very cool!

19th July 2012, 06:36 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Yup it's an Indian Torador of usual form, just really really small. Very nice indeed!

20th July 2012, 05:04 AM	#4
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	Thanks for the answers, I have searched every were but I can not find an image of another torador pistol.

20th July 2012, 06:14 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I wouldn't call it a pistol because it has a stock not a grip. I'd liken it to the coach guns and the like. I've had a small 'carbine' Torador before and I've seen very 'slightly' proportioned small ones described as for children.

1st August 2012, 07:52 PM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Sorry for the impertinence, estcrh Have you thoroughly checked both backsight and priming pan fixation... and the breech plug area ? Are you sure the barrel was not cut down ? Sure this is a 'customized' gun. The point is : is it a modified toradar or was it born like that ?

4th August 2012, 03:02 AM	#10
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	Fernando, thanks for the thoughts, I have not seen the gun in person but hopefully I will have a chance, your mention of the breech plug is interesting. I have seen several Japanese matchlock breech plugs but I could not find any torador breech plug images online, do you know of any? If and when I do get a chance to see this gun I might be able to take it apart and photograph it and try to determine if it was originally created as a pistol. Ibrahiim, you may be right about the barrel being modified from a larger one but the fact that there is a rear sight does not necessarily mean it is a cut down barrel. Since there are no other images so far of another torador pistol to compare this one to all I can say is that all Japanese matchlock pistols I have seen including the very small ones have a rear sight and these were made as pistols for sure. I think the images I posted are misleading, from the size given I do not think the stock could be cut/ modified from a larger torador, this would be a really tiny pistol, the type you could hide in a boot etc. If I get an opportunity I will try to take a picture of this pistol next to a full size torador for comparison.

7th August 2012, 01:05 AM	#11
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,069	The breechplugs of Indian matchlocks are heat shrunk in. The plug is made to fit, the breech heated till it expands and the plug inserted, when the barrel cools the plug is fixed. No screw thread. Toradors seem to have been made in all sizes, so I find nothing odd in a pistol sized one, and they seem to have always been in this profile as well. So I would say, unusual but not unique. G.C.Stone illustrates a couple of Turkish and Persian "pistols" with this stock configuration, but with Miquelet locks rather than match. I remember a reference from somewhere that these were fired from (butted against) the thigh on horseback, rather than with an extended arm like a western pistol. Really only handling would tell whether it was born as a pistol or retrofitted from a damaged barrel....and the latter would still be in keeping with it being a genuine piece.