How did Empus obtain steel?

ariel · 2nd November 2015, 06:53 AM

I looked in several books and couldn't find an answer.
Did Empus of Indonesia and Philippines make their own steel?
If no, where did they get it?
If yes, where did they get iron ore? What method did they use to make steel?

A. G. Maisey · 2nd November 2015, 08:28 AM

Actually the question is probably :-

where did they obtain iron?

It depends on the period. In the period through to, and after, European contact, there was a lot of trade with other parts of Maritime SE Asia, China, India, and the Middle East. It is known that tools were imported from China, and the material from these tools was used in weapon production. Ferric material would probably have come into Jawa and Bali from the other trading partners also.

Iron bearing sands exist in a number of places in both Jawa and Bali, and smelting of these sands continued in some parts of East Jawa through into fairly recent times.

In Colonial times iron from European sources was used. In the late 19th and early 20th century the Javanese smiths had a great fondness for Dutch railway lines. These bules were incredibly stupid to put such valuable material out on the ground in isolated places with no guards --- difficult to understand how they think.

Much more recently the great grand sons of these smiths were removing the rivets from the new bridge between Surabaya and Madura, and for the same reason:- excellent material for free.

The production of local smelting operations was bloomery iron, which can be processed to produce steel. Only the core of the keris is steel, the outer faces of the blade are iron, in early blades the pamor effect was produced by forge welding local poor quality high phosphorus iron with the better quality imported material, this was done to extend quantity, but had the effect of creating pamor.

In later periods nickel bearing material from Luwu in Southern Sulawesi was used to produce the pamor effect.

Prof. Jerzy Piaskowski carried out a lot of research on the material of early keris. Most of his research centered around gonjos, and one of his interesting findings was a gonjo made from wootz. Whether this was local production or import we don't know, but there is a type of Javanese pamor material that has a very similar appearance to wootz. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that wootz was produced in Jawa.

A few years ago Dietrich Drescher carried out one or more successful smelts in Solo, with the assistance of a local pandai keris. I believe he used iron sands from the south coast of Jawa.

So, where did Javanese smiths obtain ferric material?

From local production and from imported tools and other imported goods.

ariel · 2nd November 2015, 10:40 AM

Excellent! Many thanks!
Can you direct me, please, to Piaskowski's data?

A. G. Maisey · 2nd November 2015, 12:10 PM

Jerzy received his promotion some time ago and now dwells in a higher realm.

Much of his work was not published.

I have probably everything he did on this analytical work, and I would be happy to make copies available to you, except for his draft, unpublished work.

I cannot do this immediately because I will need to find it first, and at the moment I have a few difficulties which make finding and copying something of a major task.

Please PM me a postal address and I'll do what I can, when I can.

Here is a link to something that is available:-

https://books.google.com.au/books/ab...AJ&redir_esc=y

Battara · 2nd November 2015, 08:41 PM

For the Philippines, there are and have been iron ore mines in the islands.

David · 3rd November 2015, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In the late 19th and early 20th century the Javanese smiths had a great fondness for Dutch railway lines. These bules were incredibly stupid to put such valuable material out on the ground in isolated places with no guards --- difficult to understand how they think.

LOL! So glad i wasn't drinking anything when i read this or i may have ruined my keyboard snorting out the liquid.

Battara · 5th November 2015, 01:26 AM

I forgot to add that in later years steel also came from truck and car springs as well.

A. G. Maisey · 5th November 2015, 02:15 AM

Yes, spring steel is usually very good material for knives, and for some other tools as well, but it is no good at all for keris.

What is required for keris is high quality wrought iron, or low carbon mild steel for the outer faces, either mixed with contrasting material to create pamor, or not, and a high carbon mild steel --- these days called a medium carbon steel --- of say around .5%C for the core.

The keris does not need high carbon material for its core, in fact, such material is not at all a good choice for the core of a keris. The keris as a weapon is used to thrust, it is not primarily a cutting weapon, and it is certainly not a tool, all that is required is material that will take an edge, not necessarily hold an edge. The softer material permits greater protection against breakage.

It could be argued that a high carbon steel, something like 01 (1%C) can be hardened and drawn to a spring temper (blue/straw) and that will provide flexibility, however, very few Javanese smiths seem to have an understanding of this today, and my guess is that in the past even less understood this. The traditional heat treat for a keris is a simple water quench not followed by a draw. This type of heat treat works very well for steels of less than .6%C.

Battara · 5th November 2015, 05:08 AM

I agree Alan. That is why earlier Moro and Filipino smiths also blended layers of soft and harder steels for strength and impact resilience, especially since they did not use thrusting as much as slashing and cutting.

2nd November 2015, 06:53 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	How did Empus obtain steel? I looked in several books and couldn't find an answer. Did Empus of Indonesia and Philippines make their own steel? If no, where did they get it? If yes, where did they get iron ore? What method did they use to make steel?

2nd November 2015, 08:28 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Actually the question is probably :- where did they obtain iron? It depends on the period. In the period through to, and after, European contact, there was a lot of trade with other parts of Maritime SE Asia, China, India, and the Middle East. It is known that tools were imported from China, and the material from these tools was used in weapon production. Ferric material would probably have come into Jawa and Bali from the other trading partners also. Iron bearing sands exist in a number of places in both Jawa and Bali, and smelting of these sands continued in some parts of East Jawa through into fairly recent times. In Colonial times iron from European sources was used. In the late 19th and early 20th century the Javanese smiths had a great fondness for Dutch railway lines. These bules were incredibly stupid to put such valuable material out on the ground in isolated places with no guards --- difficult to understand how they think. Much more recently the great grand sons of these smiths were removing the rivets from the new bridge between Surabaya and Madura, and for the same reason:- excellent material for free. The production of local smelting operations was bloomery iron, which can be processed to produce steel. Only the core of the keris is steel, the outer faces of the blade are iron, in early blades the pamor effect was produced by forge welding local poor quality high phosphorus iron with the better quality imported material, this was done to extend quantity, but had the effect of creating pamor. In later periods nickel bearing material from Luwu in Southern Sulawesi was used to produce the pamor effect. Prof. Jerzy Piaskowski carried out a lot of research on the material of early keris. Most of his research centered around gonjos, and one of his interesting findings was a gonjo made from wootz. Whether this was local production or import we don't know, but there is a type of Javanese pamor material that has a very similar appearance to wootz. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that wootz was produced in Jawa. A few years ago Dietrich Drescher carried out one or more successful smelts in Solo, with the assistance of a local pandai keris. I believe he used iron sands from the south coast of Jawa. So, where did Javanese smiths obtain ferric material? From local production and from imported tools and other imported goods.

2nd November 2015, 10:40 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Excellent! Many thanks! Can you direct me, please, to Piaskowski's data?

2nd November 2015, 12:10 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Jerzy received his promotion some time ago and now dwells in a higher realm. Much of his work was not published. I have probably everything he did on this analytical work, and I would be happy to make copies available to you, except for his draft, unpublished work. I cannot do this immediately because I will need to find it first, and at the moment I have a few difficulties which make finding and copying something of a major task. Please PM me a postal address and I'll do what I can, when I can. Here is a link to something that is available:- https://books.google.com.au/books/ab...AJ&redir_esc=y

2nd November 2015, 08:41 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	For the Philippines, there are and have been iron ore mines in the islands.

5th November 2015, 01:26 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I forgot to add that in later years steel also came from truck and car springs as well.

5th November 2015, 02:15 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Yes, spring steel is usually very good material for knives, and for some other tools as well, but it is no good at all for keris. What is required for keris is high quality wrought iron, or low carbon mild steel for the outer faces, either mixed with contrasting material to create pamor, or not, and a high carbon mild steel --- these days called a medium carbon steel --- of say around .5%C for the core. The keris does not need high carbon material for its core, in fact, such material is not at all a good choice for the core of a keris. The keris as a weapon is used to thrust, it is not primarily a cutting weapon, and it is certainly not a tool, all that is required is material that will take an edge, not necessarily hold an edge. The softer material permits greater protection against breakage. It could be argued that a high carbon steel, something like 01 (1%C) can be hardened and drawn to a spring temper (blue/straw) and that will provide flexibility, however, very few Javanese smiths seem to have an understanding of this today, and my guess is that in the past even less understood this. The traditional heat treat for a keris is a simple water quench not followed by a draw. This type of heat treat works very well for steels of less than .6%C.

5th November 2015, 05:08 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I agree Alan. That is why earlier Moro and Filipino smiths also blended layers of soft and harder steels for strength and impact resilience, especially since they did not use thrusting as much as slashing and cutting.