Size Difference of Moro Spears

[Lew]

Hi Guys

Can anyone explain to me why there is such a size difference between the spear in the middle and the other two on the sides. Would the larger one be more for show or for status? The bigger one measures 18" and weighs 2lbs the other two are around 12" and much lighter in weight.

Lew

[BluErf]

Variation in size of weaponries, at least in South East Asia, seemed quite common. There are little Javanese spear blades 5inches long and there are monsters 2-foot long, I've heard. Small ones could be for talismanic uses, large ones could be 'presentation' or 'ceremonial' ones, being too heavy or unwieldy to use. Or maybe it was the weapon of a particularly large warrior.

I've read about moro spears 18 inches long which were actually used, but this is the 1st time I'm seeing one.

Same thing happens in sundangs -- I've seen blades range from 18 inches to 27 inches.

Maybe there isn't much explanation to it. S.E.A. harbours lots of quirks. But that's part of cultural evolution in a region of ten thousand islands, isn't it.

[BluErf]

Oh yes, and maybe it also depends on how the spear is going to be used. Slashing spears tend to be broader and bigger, but maybe somewhat flatter. Thrusting spears can be shorter, narrower, but thicker in blade.

[zamboanga]

yakan budiaks average about 18 inches. there is a tausug spear here somewhere thats less than a foot. but i have to agree that size would depend on intended use.

[Federico]

Some explanation in the size variance maybe that some were meant for solely for throwing, others were meant for more lance type usage (hmmm...dunno if that makes sense), and others still for in between use.

[MABAGANI]

Lew, I had tried test cuts with my long spearhead similar to yours in size this afternoon, Federico did a great etch job on it a few years ago, I wanted to bring out the pamor back out in the center panels, had the original brass ferrule but had to rebuild the shaft at the time, I went with a five foot oak stained black so I could practice with it in a tight space, my den. It handles like a short sword on the end of the stave, formidable weapon for thrust and cut, extra long and short range...cut/thrusts as well if not better than some swords.
I agree the size range varies depending on use, the smaller ones probably more for throwing, the larger type can serve dual purposes if needed. There is even a great variation in the length of the poles. I picked up an uncut one years ago from Farrow about 12 feet with a smaller sized spearhead.
Zamboanga, nice collection, I notice a Tausug hat on the side too, is the flag in the back a rendition of an early battle or ceremonial flag? I'd also be interested in your opinion on the distinguishing features of the different type Moro spears, Tausug, Samal, Mindanao, etc...

[zamboanga]

mabagani, yes that's a tausug saruk tinambigasan - a salakot to most other tribes. the flag is used in the war dance tamingan of the yakans. as to differences among spears, i'll post later a comparative picture of these budiaks (1 is tausug and the rest are yakans). i havent had the chance in seeing and possessing budiaks or sankils of the other tribes.

if it were not for security issues, i'd love to visit basilan again soon. there are a lot of questions that can be answered there plus the opportunity to take pictures of a yakan swordmaker at work.

[Tim Simmons]

Hi, is this a Moro spear?[IMG]http://[/IMG] The blade is 32 cm ,the total spear length is 152cm, and finnished with a rather nice small horn pommel.Tim

[MABAGANI]

Tim, see Malay World Edged Weapons site- http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/ , discription under Indonesian tombak.

[Tim Simmons]

Hi,thank you ,Malaysia or Java thats quite a distance betwean the two.I do not know much about pieces from this area.I will collect anything that seems right at the time.Tim

[zamboanga]

as promised, here is a picture of the budiaks placed side by side. the second one from the left is said to be a tausug's. Note however, the other budiaks here are the more common ones and they appear both among tausugs and yakans.

a different spear which is much rarer now is the sankil.

[Spunjer]

W W! that's one beautiful sungkaan!!!




nice spear collection, zamboanga...

[Rick]

This example of a Moro (?) spear out of the archives to add to the examples shown in this thread .
Zamboanga , I'd be interested in your take on this example .

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001591.html

[zelbone]

Excellent spear collection, Zamboanga!

Do you have an example of an example of a sankil to share with us? I'm curious to see one. Also have you seen any examples of Maranao budiaks? Here's an old budiak of mine that I'm assuming is Maguindanao since there's a capture tag on it stating it was collected around Cotobato in 1907.

[zamboanga]

rick,

your spear appears to have the profile of a moro budiak. in my opinion it could have been reserved for a ceremonial purpose - wedding, courtship along with a panji perhaps... its too beautiful for battle. as to tribe, i'm certain it is not yakan, the ferrule is too long almost the length of the blade itself to qualify as yakan.

zelbone,

i do not have budiaks from other tribes.

here is the only link i found with reference to a sankil:

http://litera1no4.tripod.com/yakan_frame.html

the sankil has a wicked hook-like design meant for thrusting and pulling out a person's guts.

[zamboanga]

"panji" - flag sometimes attached to a budiak/s during ceremonies.

[zamboanga]

zel,

is that rattan in your budiak? the original pole of that budiak?

[Rick]

For your input on my spear Zamboanga .

[zelbone]

Zamboanga,
Yes that's rattan woven around the shaft near the spear head. I guess it acts like the metal ferrules on your examples. It's woven in a way similar to the way rattan is woven on a few panabases and kampilans I've seen. It's pretty loose now so I don't handle this budiak as much as I'd like to. The pole is original as well and is made of a nice dense rattan staff with multiple nodes...I wish I could get rattan bastons this nice for my arnis training ! The whole spear stands about 5'6" and is pretty light. I'm guessing it would throw rather nicely, but I'm afraid I would mess it up and my neighbors would think I was weird ! The only thing missing is the end cap at the other end of the shaft. The sankil sounds neat after you described how to use it...I definately have to get one of those!!!

[Federico]

Pics...pics...more pics please

[zamboanga]

here is another thing i've learned about yakan budiaks. the ones intended for battle and are carried by the foot warriors have rattan poles. makes sense because their easier to make. the ones sporting wooden poles serve either a dual (ceremonial, battle) purpose or are indicators of status or rank.

the sankil is said to be the favored spear for ambush and is said to have a longer pole.

[VANDOO]

I HAVE ALSO WONDERED ABOUT THE SIZES OF BLADES AND LEGNTH OF POLES. I CAME TO MUCH THE SAME CONCLUSIONS AS EVERYONE ELSE , BUT WAS NOT SATISFIED. I HAVE A SPEAR THAT IS COMPLETE WITH A EXTREMLY LARGE BLADE AND VERY LONG POLE, ITS BALANCE IS GOOD IF YOU CHOKE UP ON THE SHAFT ABOUT 2/3 OF THE WAY TOWARD THE POINT. IT COULD BE USED FOR SLASHING AND THRUSTING BUT YOU WOULD HAVE THAT LONG SHAFT STICKING OUT BEHIND YOU AND IF IT HIT ANYTHING OR SOMEONE GOT BEHIND YOU , YOU WOULD BE UNDONE.
PERHAPS THESE WERE USED IN THE FORTIFICATIONS WHERE A WARRIOR COULD THRUST DOWN ON THE ENEMY. THIS WOULD MAKE THE LARGE HEAVY BLADE AND LONG SHAFT A ADVANTAGE INSTEAD OF A HANDICAP.IN SUCH A POSITION IT COULD SPLIT A SHIELD OR PENETRATE ARMOR EASIER THAN A LIGHTER WEAPON. I DON'T RECALL THE MORO CARYING AROUND CEREMONIAL WEAPONS MUCH AND THERE ARE QUITE A LOT OF LARGE SPEAR HEADS AROUND SO ITS A POSSIBILITY.

[Rick]

These two are both approximately 9' long when mounted on their Palmwood hafts . The hafts are iron shod at the butts .

Mandaya AFAIK .

[zamboanga]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

PERHAPS THESE WERE USED IN THE FORTIFICATIONS WHERE A WARRIOR COULD THRUST DOWN ON THE ENEMY.

a kota comes to mind...

[Federico]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I HAVE ALSO WONDERED ABOUT THE SIZES OF BLADES AND LEGNTH OF POLES. I CAME TO MUCH THE SAME CONCLUSIONS AS EVERYONE ELSE , BUT WAS NOT SATISFIED. I HAVE A SPEAR THAT IS COMPLETE WITH A EXTREMLY LARGE BLADE AND VERY LONG POLE, ITS BALANCE IS GOOD IF YOU CHOKE UP ON THE SHAFT ABOUT 2/3 OF THE WAY TOWARD THE POINT. IT COULD BE USED FOR SLASHING AND THRUSTING BUT YOU WOULD HAVE THAT LONG SHAFT STICKING OUT BEHIND YOU AND IF IT HIT ANYTHING OR SOMEONE GOT BEHIND YOU , YOU WOULD BE UNDONE.
PERHAPS THESE WERE USED IN THE FORTIFICATIONS WHERE A WARRIOR COULD THRUST DOWN ON THE ENEMY. THIS WOULD MAKE THE LARGE HEAVY BLADE AND LONG SHAFT A ADVANTAGE INSTEAD OF A HANDICAP.IN SUCH A POSITION IT COULD SPLIT A SHIELD OR PENETRATE ARMOR EASIER THAN A LIGHTER WEAPON. I DON'T RECALL THE MORO CARYING AROUND CEREMONIAL WEAPONS MUCH AND THERE ARE QUITE A LOT OF LARGE SPEAR HEADS AROUND SO ITS A POSSIBILITY.

Depending on the fighting style, the weight of longer spears may not have been a factor negating their use in combat. I know especially after training in the style of Largo Mano, that I have found much more utility in larger heavier weapons that I could not see before. Particularly considering period pics, I have often encountered pictures of Moro warriors bearing spears that tower over their heads, that even if they were a short 4'8" (which at the time of the US arrival into PI was the average height of Tagalog males, whereas in Moroland the average height was 5'4"), would easily stand above 6-7'