Seeking advice

Anthony G. · 26th April 2019, 04:26 AM

This is my new commissioned Balinese keris. I would like to seek comment, should gold plating be done on the motif or it should be left as it was in current state.

My impression was Balinese keris are always 'colorful'. I would like to try to stick to the tradition and originality if possible.

Thank you.

kai · 26th April 2019, 02:14 PM

Hello Anthony,

I can see no reason why not to put gold on that singa...

Make sure that all rust gets removed first though. Please post better pics once you receive this keris!

Regards,
Kai

David · 26th April 2019, 05:00 PM

Yes, strange to see what appears to be rust already setting in on this brand new blade. I agree with Kai. As a newly commissioned blade i think it is certainly your prerogative to add kinatah to this blade. But definitely be sure the rust is completely removed first. Also, for my tastes i would stain the blade darker.

kai · 27th April 2019, 04:45 PM

Hello David,

Quote:

Also, for my tastes i would stain the blade darker.

The gonjo seems to accept the warangan better than the blade. It already seems to be a bit on the dull side, too.

If it were mine, I'd request:
(0. Finishing the scabbard first; )
1. A complete and thorough cleaning of the blade (with removing all rust and staining);
2. A thorough polishing job on the blade;
3. Verifying the blade;
4. Applying the kinatah;
5. Another approval step;
6. Warangan done quickly (not by soaking the blade) - actually, I'd prefer to do this myself;
7. Neutralizing and thoroughly drying the blade;
8. Amply oiling and wrapping the blade;
9. Checking pics again (and shipping all pieces unmounted).

I reckon such a procedure may be difficult to follow for many artisans though...

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 28th April 2019, 02:11 AM

Kai, have you ever considered taking six or twelve months off from work and finding a mentor in Central Jawa?

I feel you might benefit greatly from this.

Or even in Australia.

I have been involved in several different types of custom made, bespoke items, both as producer & as client, and the people I have known who worked in these fields would simply refuse to accept a commission from any prospective client who placed such stipulations upon them.

It might have been OK in the past to be the master of the craftsman, I doubt that this is so these days. Even in a craft where it might reasonably be expected. Like tailoring.

I ordered a tailor made suit when I was 21. I went to a tailor who was regognised for quality work, there were interminable fittings, and it was finally delivered. It really looked great, and improved the way I looked by about 500%

It was probably 20 years before I ordered another tailor made suit, and the process for that was very much abbreviated.

The last tailor-made suit I ordered was in about 1990. A tailor came to Sydney from Hong Kong, took my measurements and took those measurements home to HK. I got one fitting, about a month later, adjustments were made, the suit was delivered in about another two weeks.

It was OK, not great, but nothing that could really be complained about.

Why did I order from HK?

Well I could only find one tailor in Sydney whose work I liked, and he had a six month waiting list, and in any case, I would much have preferred a new motor vehicle to a new suit. He was just a bit too expensive for me.

These days it seems to me that everybody who carries out work for somebody else does so on their own terms. The days when we could even tell a plumber what we wanted done and how are long gone. Try to supervise or place restrictions on anybody, they tell you to stick your money in a place where the sun don't shine.

But specifically related to keris.

All the Javanese craftsmen I know regard any criticism at all of their work as being close to personal insult. They can react in a number of ways, but the end result is usually that if they do anything at all, it will not improve the item, but rather detract from it. What we do here is to either accept or reject the work. If we reject and have already paid a deposit, it is very unlikely we will ever see that deposit again, so we accept the item no matter what. If it is fixable we give it to somebody else to fix, and this could take a number of people and a number of tries. If it is not fixable, we just on-sell it.

We do not ever try to tell the craftsman where his work is defective and how we want it fixed.

But if Anthony is working through an agent, his path might be marginally easier, if his agent is cooperative and wants return orders.

Anthony G. · 28th April 2019, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

These days it seems to me that everybody who carries out work for somebody else does so on their own terms. The days when we could even tell a plumber what we wanted done and how are long gone. Try to supervise or place restrictions on anybody, they tell you to stick your money in a place where the sun don't shine.

But specifically related to keris.

All the Javanese craftsmen I know regard any criticism at all of their work as being close to personal insult. They can react in a number of ways, but the end result is usually that if they do anything at all, it will not improve the item, but rather detract from it. What we do here is to either accept or reject the work. If we reject and have already paid a deposit, it is very unlikely we will ever see that deposit again, so we accept the item no matter what. If it is fixable we give it to somebody else to fix, and this could take a number of people and a number of tries. If it is not fixable, we just on-sell it.

We do not ever try to tell the craftsman where his work is defective and how we want it fixed.

But if Anthony is working through an agent, his path might be marginally easier, if his agent is cooperative and wants return orders.

I love Alan's quote and it is funny but is true.

//quote//Try to supervise or place restrictions on anybody, they tell you to stick your money in a place where the sun don't shine.//quote//

This is same for computing/programming projects and that is why 90% of system development projects always failed. .

As for keris, I think for art craving etc, it is too challenging for keris making as it is not machine mould/cast etc but hand made. It depends on the craftsmen seniority and experience and even experts 'fails' sometime.

For this Balinese keris, I gave the drawing to the craftsman thru agent and keep my finger cross. The actual product is far from the drawing but it turns up to be excellent, nonetheless. I accepted it happily.

I can 'feel' this Balinese cultural keris and feel none for the other Madura made keris which is a fine art but 'no feeling'.

Anthony G. · 28th April 2019, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes, strange to see what appears to be rust already setting in on this brand new blade. I agree with Kai. As a newly commissioned blade i think it is certainly your prerogative to add kinatah to this blade. But definitely be sure the rust is completely removed first. Also, for my tastes i would stain the blade darker.

Hi David

Thanks for advice, i almost overlooked on that part about rust and mention it is not final product.

This is not the final bilah condition i assume but i will ask. Currently it is sent to get warangka made and also a Balinese painter needs to paint on the scabbard etc.

Anthony G. · 28th April 2019, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Anthony,

I can see no reason why not to put gold on that singa...

Make sure that all rust gets removed first though. Please post better pics once you receive this keris!

Regards,
Kai

I am not sure as I saw most Balinese keris with kinatah is actually more colorful and has floral motif around it. This keris only has a motif. I saw most motif only keris of Balinese tradition is not coated with gold.

Anthony G. · 14th June 2019, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

I am not sure as I saw most Balinese keris with kinatah is actually more colorful and has floral motif around it. This keris only has a motif. I saw most motif only keris of Balinese tradition is not coated with gold.

Thanks GOD that I decide not to put GOLD plating in the first place orelse it will covers the beauty. I left it as it was and it is awesome.

Sajen · 14th June 2019, 06:19 PM

Indeed very nice!

David · 15th June 2019, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

Thanks GOD that I decide not to put GOLD plating in the first place orelse it will covers the beauty. I left it as it was and it is awesome.

I agree Anthony. The pamor looks beautiful within the winged singo. It would be a shame to cover it up, even with gold.

Rick · 15th June 2019, 01:41 PM

I love how the pamor makes the wings on the beast look feathery.
Also the eye seems to be looking at the viewer on this side of the sorsoran. Can we see the other side of the blade?

26th April 2019, 04:26 AM	#1
Anthony G. Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 463	Seeking advice This is my new commissioned Balinese keris. I would like to seek comment, should gold plating be done on the motif or it should be left as it was in current state. My impression was Balinese keris are always 'colorful'. I would like to try to stick to the tradition and originality if possible. Thank you. Attached Images

28th April 2019, 02:11 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Kai, have you ever considered taking six or twelve months off from work and finding a mentor in Central Jawa? I feel you might benefit greatly from this. Or even in Australia. I have been involved in several different types of custom made, bespoke items, both as producer & as client, and the people I have known who worked in these fields would simply refuse to accept a commission from any prospective client who placed such stipulations upon them. It might have been OK in the past to be the master of the craftsman, I doubt that this is so these days. Even in a craft where it might reasonably be expected. Like tailoring. I ordered a tailor made suit when I was 21. I went to a tailor who was regognised for quality work, there were interminable fittings, and it was finally delivered. It really looked great, and improved the way I looked by about 500% It was probably 20 years before I ordered another tailor made suit, and the process for that was very much abbreviated. The last tailor-made suit I ordered was in about 1990. A tailor came to Sydney from Hong Kong, took my measurements and took those measurements home to HK. I got one fitting, about a month later, adjustments were made, the suit was delivered in about another two weeks. It was OK, not great, but nothing that could really be complained about. Why did I order from HK? Well I could only find one tailor in Sydney whose work I liked, and he had a six month waiting list, and in any case, I would much have preferred a new motor vehicle to a new suit. He was just a bit too expensive for me. These days it seems to me that everybody who carries out work for somebody else does so on their own terms. The days when we could even tell a plumber what we wanted done and how are long gone. Try to supervise or place restrictions on anybody, they tell you to stick your money in a place where the sun don't shine. But specifically related to keris. All the Javanese craftsmen I know regard any criticism at all of their work as being close to personal insult. They can react in a number of ways, but the end result is usually that if they do anything at all, it will not improve the item, but rather detract from it. What we do here is to either accept or reject the work. If we reject and have already paid a deposit, it is very unlikely we will ever see that deposit again, so we accept the item no matter what. If it is fixable we give it to somebody else to fix, and this could take a number of people and a number of tries. If it is not fixable, we just on-sell it. We do not ever try to tell the craftsman where his work is defective and how we want it fixed. But if Anthony is working through an agent, his path might be marginally easier, if his agent is cooperative and wants return orders. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 28th April 2019 at 02:24 AM.

26th April 2019, 02:14 PM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Anthony, I can see no reason why not to put gold on that singa... Make sure that all rust gets removed first though. Please post better pics once you receive this keris! Regards, Kai

26th April 2019, 05:00 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Yes, strange to see what appears to be rust already setting in on this brand new blade. I agree with Kai. As a newly commissioned blade i think it is certainly your prerogative to add kinatah to this blade. But definitely be sure the rust is completely removed first. Also, for my tastes i would stain the blade darker.

14th June 2019, 06:19 PM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Indeed very nice!

15th June 2019, 01:41 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	I love how the pamor makes the wings on the beast look feathery. Also the eye seems to be looking at the viewer on this side of the sorsoran. Can we see the other side of the blade?