Philippine Spearhead?

RobT · 4th January 2016, 12:51 AM

Hello,
Sold as: "spear point w/case brought back Herbert read Carney 32nd Div 126th Inf bronze medal Abecito River". In 1945, the 126th Infantry was engaged in bitter fighting with the Japanese in Luzon for control of the Villa Verde Trail but I can find no Abecito River in the Philippines. Nor can I find any Herbert Carney listed as a medal winner. The item measures about 12-5/8" (32 cm) long. Blade is about 11-1/4" (28.5 cm) long and 1-1/16 (2.8 cm) at the widest. Tang is about 1-1/2" (3 cm) long and is wrapped with remnants of what appear to be hair & tar. Oval brass ferrule is about 5/16" (9 mm) x 15/32" (11 mm) and about 3/16" (4 mm) deep. Copper wrap on sheath may not be original to the piece. The blade doesn't look robust enough to be a combat spearhead. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
RobT

Battara · 4th January 2016, 12:58 AM

This could be a WWII era version of a Mandaya spearhead. It has several Mandaya characteristics like the tip and the bottom.

Older versions have a central panel and they are wider.

Ian · 5th January 2016, 04:53 AM

I agree with Battara. This does look like a Mandayan spear head, or possibly Bagobo. It is not typical of Luzon spears.

Ian.

RobT · 9th January 2016, 03:07 AM

Battara & Ian,
Thanks for your responses. It does look like a Mandayan shape and the sheath does look Philippino. I do have two concerns however. First is that all the Mandayan spearheads I have seen on line are far larger and more robust that what I have. Second problem is all those spearheads are socketed. Mine has a tang. I wonder if it is a spearhead for hunting, not warfare. Either that or the Mandayans like really large arrowheads
Sincerely,
RobT

Battara · 9th January 2016, 04:53 AM

Actually my Mandaya spearhead and the one that I sold recently both have tangs.

Rick · 9th January 2016, 05:27 AM

I have two socketed ones but I think they may be the exception rather than the rule.
Are you sure the socketed examples you've seen are not just ferruled?
Sometimes it's hard to tell from an old picture; or have you seen them IRL like in a museum.

Timo Nieminen · 9th January 2016, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

The blade doesn't look robust enough to be a combat spearhead.

From the photo, it looks easily robust enough for a fighting spear. How thick is the blade at the "waist" near the point? (I think 4mm would be thick enough; under 2mm would make me wonder if it's decorative.)

RobT · 10th January 2016, 06:17 PM

Battara & Rick,
Thanks for the heads up about the tangs. A further search online shows that what I originally thought were sockets are quite likely ferrules.
Timo,
My micrometer (Starrett) gives a thickness at the flared area just below the tip (I think that's what you mean as the waist) of .077" (1.96 mm) which is a tad less than 5/16" (.078125). The thickest area of the blade (at the base) is .124" (3.15 mm) which is a tiny bit less than 1/8" (.125). The blade is under your 2 mm minimum but it doesn't look very decorative. Could it be for hunting something like wild pig?
Sincerely,
RobT

Timo Nieminen · 10th January 2016, 09:50 PM

My usual rule-of-thumb is that if the tip of a weapon is thinner than 2mm for a few inches/5cm or more, it's designed with cutting in mind, and sacrifices strength in thrusting to improve cutting.

To make a spear with a cutting-focussed tip strikes me as unusual. But being able to cut well and easily with a fighting spear is a Good Thing. Also good for the head to be light, which also encourages thin. (It's easy to get "light" by making the head small, but a long blade is also good on a fighting spear.)

From a functional viewpoint, having almost parallel edges as one approaches the tip, and then an abrupt and short taper to the point, works with thin quite well. The width near the tip gives strength, and allows a thin tip. The profile of the blade might be functional design, rather than just fashion. (Compare with flared tips on swords that become very thin near the tip, like oxtail dao, the British 1796 light cavalry sword, many falchions, etc.)

There are cut-and-thrust swords made for the battlefield that have tips less than 2mm thick for the last few inches. Usually not much below 2mm (more purely cutting swords can approach 1mm), so comparable with this spearhead.

(I don't know what the local wild pigs are like. For wild pigs here, and in some other places, you probably want something quite robust. Perhaps more robust than you'd take to a fight.)

RobT · 12th January 2016, 02:32 AM

Timo,
Thanks so much for sticking with this and giving such a good explanation. The spearhead will join my budiak and my Masai lion spear as a spearhead in good standing.
Sincerely,
RobT

4th January 2016, 12:51 AM	#1
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 489	Philippine Spearhead? Hello, Sold as: "spear point w/case brought back Herbert read Carney 32nd Div 126th Inf bronze medal Abecito River". In 1945, the 126th Infantry was engaged in bitter fighting with the Japanese in Luzon for control of the Villa Verde Trail but I can find no Abecito River in the Philippines. Nor can I find any Herbert Carney listed as a medal winner. The item measures about 12-5/8" (32 cm) long. Blade is about 11-1/4" (28.5 cm) long and 1-1/16 (2.8 cm) at the widest. Tang is about 1-1/2" (3 cm) long and is wrapped with remnants of what appear to be hair & tar. Oval brass ferrule is about 5/16" (9 mm) x 15/32" (11 mm) and about 3/16" (4 mm) deep. Copper wrap on sheath may not be original to the piece. The blade doesn't look robust enough to be a combat spearhead. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, RobT Attached Images

9th January 2016, 03:07 AM	#4
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 489	It Does look Mandayan Battara & Ian, Thanks for your responses. It does look like a Mandayan shape and the sheath does look Philippino. I do have two concerns however. First is that all the Mandayan spearheads I have seen on line are far larger and more robust that what I have. Second problem is all those spearheads are socketed. Mine has a tang. I wonder if it is a spearhead for hunting, not warfare. Either that or the Mandayans like really large arrowheads Sincerely, RobT

10th January 2016, 06:17 PM	#8
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 489	Thickness & Tangs Battara & Rick, Thanks for the heads up about the tangs. A further search online shows that what I originally thought were sockets are quite likely ferrules. Timo, My micrometer (Starrett) gives a thickness at the flared area just below the tip (I think that's what you mean as the waist) of .077" (1.96 mm) which is a tad less than 5/16" (.078125). The thickest area of the blade (at the base) is .124" (3.15 mm) which is a tiny bit less than 1/8" (.125). The blade is under your 2 mm minimum but it doesn't look very decorative. Could it be for hunting something like wild pig? Sincerely, RobT

12th January 2016, 02:32 AM	#10
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 489	Now A Spear in Good Standing Timo, Thanks so much for sticking with this and giving such a good explanation. The spearhead will join my budiak and my Masai lion spear as a spearhead in good standing. Sincerely, RobT

4th January 2016, 12:58 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	This could be a WWII era version of a Mandaya spearhead. It has several Mandaya characteristics like the tip and the bottom. Older versions have a central panel and they are wider.

5th January 2016, 04:53 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	I agree with Battara. This does look like a Mandayan spear head, or possibly Bagobo. It is not typical of Luzon spears. Ian.

9th January 2016, 04:53 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Actually my Mandaya spearhead and the one that I sold recently both have tangs.

9th January 2016, 05:27 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I have two socketed ones but I think they may be the exception rather than the rule. Are you sure the socketed examples you've seen are not just ferruled? Sometimes it's hard to tell from an old picture; or have you seen them IRL like in a museum.

10th January 2016, 09:50 PM	#9
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	My usual rule-of-thumb is that if the tip of a weapon is thinner than 2mm for a few inches/5cm or more, it's designed with cutting in mind, and sacrifices strength in thrusting to improve cutting. To make a spear with a cutting-focussed tip strikes me as unusual. But being able to cut well and easily with a fighting spear is a Good Thing. Also good for the head to be light, which also encourages thin. (It's easy to get "light" by making the head small, but a long blade is also good on a fighting spear.) From a functional viewpoint, having almost parallel edges as one approaches the tip, and then an abrupt and short taper to the point, works with thin quite well. The width near the tip gives strength, and allows a thin tip. The profile of the blade might be functional design, rather than just fashion. (Compare with flared tips on swords that become very thin near the tip, like oxtail dao, the British 1796 light cavalry sword, many falchions, etc.) There are cut-and-thrust swords made for the battlefield that have tips less than 2mm thick for the last few inches. Usually not much below 2mm (more purely cutting swords can approach 1mm), so comparable with this spearhead. (I don't know what the local wild pigs are like. For wild pigs here, and in some other places, you probably want something quite robust. Perhaps more robust than you'd take to a fight.)