New Member-Help please on 2 18th C sabres

Hanger1 · 26th November 2023, 03:48 PM

Hello Members,

I am happy to be a part of the site. I am normally a nihonto and indo-persian collector, but I have entered the fray of European swords after genealogy research discovered much British Regular and Provincial army duties in the colonies’ early days(1600s), French and Indian War/Seven Years war and beyond. I come from long lines of military service throughout my direct genealogy.

Thus I have two sabres to present for some help on if you could.

The first is a brass, stirrup hilted petit Montmorency blade with celestial markings similar to Peter Munich’s marks but from what I read here, does not indicate necessarily him from Solingen. I got that information from the older makers mark threads here. I can’t find anything close to the stirrup hilt either so that is also a mystery. The closest I have found is a French Dragoon officer

The second sword is apparently a French Revolution, petits Montmorency type blade with brass hilt with a cutlass, hacking blade instead of the true Montmorency blade. This blade has “Vaincre ou Mourir” on it. The curious thing about this one, is that it was re-peened, and as it was disassembled, there was a makers mark on the tang that I can’t attribute to anything other than most likely Solingen and an independent maker is my guess. My hope is to get a hit here. The blade has major battle damage, with probably 50 diamond shaped edge hits. This may have been one of those “dropped” swords after the owner may not have fared too well.

I am providing pictures the best I can within the guidelines, so if I need to post better ones, I certainly will. Thanks in advance. BTW the red tinge on the blade is not active rust but my red jacket

Other than the battle damage and some oxidation, the blade is in beautiful shape.

Jeff

Peter Hudson · 26th November 2023, 09:12 PM

See the thread on Montmorency swords at http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...ht=Montmorency

Hanger1 · 26th November 2023, 09:25 PM

Thanks Peter. I did see that and it is certainly helpful. One of the best writings I have seen on Petits Montmorency is in the monthly periodical Gazette des Armes issues 368,421, 442, and 475. I was able to read them through a free service that lets you read each online. If anyone is interested I’d be glad to provide the link. It’s in French but I translated it.

I have also found the sword’s brother out there that was recently sold in the market but no details on the steel or maker. I am fairly sure it’s not Klingenthaler or Chatellerault as they would be obvious, like the Virginia Provincial blades for Washington.

corrado26 · 27th November 2023, 07:40 AM

Herre you have a similar piece:

Hanger1 · 27th November 2023, 01:59 PM

Thank you corrado26, every bit helps. The main thing on that sword is the makers mark. I think it will end up being a Solingen independent maker no one has heard of. The owner before me had tried to figure that out as well with no answers. The sword you provided is made by the Klingenthal, Bas-Rhin royal manufacturing facility, and are marked so, just like the briquets supplied to Washington in Virginia.

Hanger1 · 13th December 2023, 01:14 PM

Wow, almost 1000 views and no answers. These 2 must be real stumpers. From my own research, continuing here and elsewhere, the first blade could be a Cassagnard sabre with the hilt being a custom. Looks very similar to stirrup hilts for Hussar type, LC blades of that time. The grooves and smooth capstan are the mystery.

The makers mark on the other, probably an individual Solingen maker with his own mark.

Thanks for those that replied early on. It helped confirm my direction.

26th November 2023, 03:48 PM	#1
Hanger1 Member Join Date: Nov 2023 Location: Trophy Club, Texas Posts: 7	New Member-Help please on 2 18th C sabres Hello Members, I am happy to be a part of the site. I am normally a nihonto and indo-persian collector, but I have entered the fray of European swords after genealogy research discovered much British Regular and Provincial army duties in the colonies’ early days(1600s), French and Indian War/Seven Years war and beyond. I come from long lines of military service throughout my direct genealogy. Thus I have two sabres to present for some help on if you could. The first is a brass, stirrup hilted petit Montmorency blade with celestial markings similar to Peter Munich’s marks but from what I read here, does not indicate necessarily him from Solingen. I got that information from the older makers mark threads here. I can’t find anything close to the stirrup hilt either so that is also a mystery. The closest I have found is a French Dragoon officer The second sword is apparently a French Revolution, petits Montmorency type blade with brass hilt with a cutlass, hacking blade instead of the true Montmorency blade. This blade has “Vaincre ou Mourir” on it. The curious thing about this one, is that it was re-peened, and as it was disassembled, there was a makers mark on the tang that I can’t attribute to anything other than most likely Solingen and an independent maker is my guess. My hope is to get a hit here. The blade has major battle damage, with probably 50 diamond shaped edge hits. This may have been one of those “dropped” swords after the owner may not have fared too well. I am providing pictures the best I can within the guidelines, so if I need to post better ones, I certainly will. Thanks in advance. BTW the red tinge on the blade is not active rust but my red jacket Other than the battle damage and some oxidation, the blade is in beautiful shape. Jeff Attached Images Last edited by Hanger1; 26th November 2023 at 09:02 PM.

27th November 2023, 07:40 AM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	Herre you have a similar piece: Attached Images

27th November 2023, 01:59 PM	#5
Hanger1 Member Join Date: Nov 2023 Location: Trophy Club, Texas Posts: 7	Thank you corrado26, every bit helps. The main thing on that sword is the makers mark. I think it will end up being a Solingen independent maker no one has heard of. The owner before me had tried to figure that out as well with no answers. The sword you provided is made by the Klingenthal, Bas-Rhin royal manufacturing facility, and are marked so, just like the briquets supplied to Washington in Virginia. Last edited by Hanger1; 27th November 2023 at 04:12 PM.

13th December 2023, 01:14 PM	#6
Hanger1 Member Join Date: Nov 2023 Location: Trophy Club, Texas Posts: 7	Wow this must be a real stumper Wow, almost 1000 views and no answers. These 2 must be real stumpers. From my own research, continuing here and elsewhere, the first blade could be a Cassagnard sabre with the hilt being a custom. Looks very similar to stirrup hilts for Hussar type, LC blades of that time. The grooves and smooth capstan are the mystery. The makers mark on the other, probably an individual Solingen maker with his own mark. Thanks for those that replied early on. It helped confirm my direction.

26th November 2023, 09:12 PM	#2
Peter Hudson Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 314	See the thread on Montmorency swords at http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...ht=Montmorency

26th November 2023, 09:25 PM	#3
Hanger1 Member Join Date: Nov 2023 Location: Trophy Club, Texas Posts: 7	Thanks Peter. I did see that and it is certainly helpful. One of the best writings I have seen on Petits Montmorency is in the monthly periodical Gazette des Armes issues 368,421, 442, and 475. I was able to read them through a free service that lets you read each online. If anyone is interested I’d be glad to provide the link. It’s in French but I translated it. I have also found the sword’s brother out there that was recently sold in the market but no details on the steel or maker. I am fairly sure it’s not Klingenthaler or Chatellerault as they would be obvious, like the Virginia Provincial blades for Washington.