Tulwar info please.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
I seem to remember getting this sword in a job lot about 10yrs ago and consigning it to the garage along with a few other bits. I found it today during the 25yr clear out, cleaned it up a little, definitely needed a bit of cleaning, and wondered if you could help me with the usual where and when. At first glance before cleaning I thought it was probably a 20thC touristic item and it might still be but as per photos there is evidence of gold work on the blade and possibly on the hilt. The blade is forged and sharp with a makers mark? near the hilt. The resin in the hilt does look to have some age to it. The hilt appears to be cast bronze not brass. Any info or ideas would be helpful.
Regards,
Norman.

[mariusgmioc]

Judging from the photos is difficult, but from what I see there is nothing "touristy" about this blade. Generally the "touristy" stuff is characterised by heavily decorated (mainly etched) blades, without a properly shaped cutting edge with blades of low carbon content that bend easily.

You seem to have a honest 19th century (my guess) Tulwar meant for business (the business being fighting).

While the photos do not appear to show an Indian ricasso, the general shape of the blade appears Indian to my eyes. But of course, better photos including the markings would be very useful.

Many old, rusty Tulwars have wootz blades and yours may be one... but this is a lottery.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Norman, have a look at the form of the attached. On the back of the blade there is an inscription refering to Amir Kamar who ruled in Sind from 1811 to 1828 AD.


Is the makers mark a katar? If yes then I have a surprise for you.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the information and the interest.

Hi Jens,
The mark could very well be the outline of a Katar. The periphery of the mark where it is not protected by the langets is a bit faint, use I guess. I have added another image which I think gives a better view of what's left of the mark. The steel has very little spring, I suspect it would not break if overly bent but would take a set. Better a bent blade than a broken one though. The cast decoration on the langets is noticeably more worn on one side consistent with the sword having been suspended on the left hand side edge down.
My Regards,
Norman.

[mross]

What would be the procedure to determine wootz?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by mross

What would be the procedure to determine wootz?

Polish it, then etch it, on a small area. If yes, then the whole blade.

I have made a thread about this long ago.

Here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21732

[Jens Nordlunde]

Although there, in the last years, have been published a number of books on Indian arms, we still know very little about the trade/production and decoration/re-decoration.
Some is known, but a lot is still missing, like some of the markings on the blades. Were they made at the time, or were they made later, if yes, when?
We will, no doubt, move on in our knowledge, but it will be slow, and with some uncertainty untill we find enough evidence to be able to say - that is how it was.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Although there, in the last years, have been published a number of books on Indian arms, we still know very little about the trade/production and decoration/re-decoration.
Some is known, but a lot is still missing, like some of the markings on the blades. Were they made at the time, or were they made later, if yes, when?
We will, no doubt, move on in our knowledge, but it will be slow, and with some uncertainty untill we find enough evidence to be able to say - that is how it was.

Very well said Jens, and through the years we have often tried to move forward with observing and trying to classify such things with Indian arms. At best, the arms themselves are often enigmatic let alone the decoration, but the markings such as these curiously placed 'katar' (?) and others defy explanation.

We have tried to determine arsenal marks many times, and aside from a couple we somewhat isolated, Bikaner (and its stipled dot patterns) was the only one definitely identified. In that instance, we can be relatively certain many, if not most of the arms there had the markings added later, as they were obviously captured (the Adonis cache largest) and marked as stored.

The only means we have of doing this is to examine examples with like markings, and with some consistency, hopefully some 'Rosetta weapon' (the linguistic breakthrough) with provenance will give us the answer to the location or armory.

Many of the marks seem established as 'talismanic', such as the trimurti (three dots) which are often found in strategic locations on the blade. These may well have been added at the time the blade was made. Many marks on blades were probably placed at manufacture as they alluded to certain quality, magic or power in the blade itself. These were selling points for the blade which was locally hilted for clients .

As we know, most references on arms, including Indian arms, steer away from subjective analysis of markings, decoration or elemental features.
Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms & Ritual" is the first reference as far as I have known to reach into metaphysical and more subjective elements in weapons, in this case Indian arms. Aside from that, the only such attention (I have been aware of)that has been afforded weapons and the subjects of religious and supernatural applications has been in the world of the keris.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Just flipping back a few pages in library viewing http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5748

[Jens Nordlunde]

It is an interresting link Ibrahiim, but unfortunately the markings of the Indian weapons seem to be far more complicated than this.
I am researching it on and off, but I still have a long way to go, before I can say - now I really have news.