Turkish sword , good stuff ?

francantolin · 6th November 2018, 09:00 PM

Hello everybody,
what do you think of this turkish sword ?
( pala sword) 18th century ??,
the blade seems nice and authentic ( no stamps or mark)
but the crossguard seems not so old and the repairs on the hilt made without care and maybe a recent work.
composite makeshift job ? ...
Any comment ?

francantolin · 6th November 2018, 09:08 PM

The welding-sticking between the handle and the guard

Edster · 6th November 2018, 10:37 PM

Francotolin,

I'm not qualified to comment on your sword, but the repair looks dodgy to me. I'm really interested in the mechanics of how your blade, cross-guard and hilt are joined. This type of sword has been considered as a prototype to the Sudanese Kaskara, but I've never had an opportunity to explore the mechanics of it's joining. Also, the date of your sword type could inform when the Kaskara's mechanics could have been adopted.

I assume the cross-guard is cast copper alloy, but its internal shape is basically the same as the Kaskara's 4-piece forge-welded iron construction.Is the bottom of the handle wedged into the top of the guard to hold the blade in place and secure all three parts together? Also, it looks like there is a pin in the handle that would attach the handle to the blades tang.

Best regards,
Ed

ariel · 6th November 2018, 11:14 PM

I do not think it is welding: one cannot weld anything to the cowhorn.
Modern adhesives ? Epoxy?

Battara · 7th November 2018, 01:43 AM

From what I can tell I agree with Ariel - epoxy and the cross guard is made of bronze.

Martin Lubojacky · 7th November 2018, 07:10 AM

I am not expert in "Turkish" weapons, nevertheless my view is, that you have nice kilij - from the category of "ordinary or normal kilijis" (very nice blade, nice handle, normal - maybe beg. of 20th century crossguard and maybe not the original one - I think made of brass, and it is always a pity that the scabbard is missing). Such miserable "repairs" (made quickly just to sell the sword asap) could be repaired, the sword needs restoreation. I think it is not from 18 century. My guess would be 19 century.

Jim McDougall · 8th November 2018, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

Francotolin,

I'm not qualified to comment on your sword, but the repair looks dodgy to me. I'm really interested in the mechanics of how your blade, cross-guard and hilt are joined. This type of sword has been considered as a prototype to the Sudanese Kaskara, but I've never had an opportunity to explore the mechanics of it's joining. Also, the date of your sword type could inform when the Kaskara's mechanics could have been adopted.

I assume the cross-guard is cast copper alloy, but its internal shape is basically the same as the Kaskara's 4-piece forge-welded iron construction.Is the bottom of the handle wedged into the top of the guard to hold the blade in place and secure all three parts together? Also, it looks like there is a pin in the handle that would attach the handle to the blades tang.

Best regards,
Ed

Ed, this is a fantastic insight! I had never thought of the similarity of this Ottoman hilt crossguard in comparison to that of the kaskara. Clearly the proximity would offer such influence for the profoundly produced examples of the Mahdiyya and after.

ariel · 8th November 2018, 11:18 PM

As a matter of fact, Sudanese crossguards resemble not the Ottoman , but rather old Mamluk guards.
One only has to check the book by Yucel to see that they are virtually identical twins, only the Sudanese are cruder.

Ottoman ones are slender, with thin langets and are either silver or brass ( or silvered brass) Both Mamluk and Sudanese are massive and made out of iron.

And the general construction of the entire swords is virtually identical : straight double-edged blades . Some Sudanese kaskaras have furrows virtually identical to the Mamluk one: the last one of the attached is an ancestor of the Doukerry:-)

This is not surprising: Egyptian Mamluks controlled or semi-controlled Sudan for centuries, well before the establishment of the Ottoman Empire.
Then, the Ottomans took some later Mamluk swords and modified them. I suspect that Persian influence played a role there.

Edster · 9th November 2018, 02:49 AM

Jim,

Thanks for the compliment.

Ariel,

I agree that your examples look externally similar to the kaskara. But I've not seen how their grip, cross-guard and blade are joined. Does the C-G have a slot in it that fits over the tang to the top of the blade with two grip scales held in place with the common three rivets OR do they go together like the kaskara with all wedged together by a one piece wooden grip fitted into the C-G hole and supported by the top langets? If the early swords and the kaskara assemblies are virtually the same, I support your view completely.

The inside of the C-G shown as the subject sword is very similar to the kaskara. The quillon profile, materials, and methods of making are not alike, but that's not the point

Say in 1800 or so some shade tree blacksmith in Eastern Sudan had an imported German blade and needed to make a C-G that would secure the three pieces together, he would look for a model that he could adapt to his needs. I believe he would like what the subject sword, contemporary and at hand, presents, forge a likeness from iron, and the prototype kaskara would be born.
He is unlikely to search for an Abbasid relic to copy.

Best regards,
Ed

6th November 2018, 09:00 PM	#1
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 876	Turkish sword , good stuff ? Hello everybody, what do you think of this turkish sword ? ( pala sword) 18th century ??, the blade seems nice and authentic ( no stamps or mark) but the crossguard seems not so old and the repairs on the hilt made without care and maybe a recent work. composite makeshift job ? ... Any comment ? Attached Images

6th November 2018, 09:08 PM	#2
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 876	The welding-sticking between the handle and the guard Attached Images

8th November 2018, 11:18 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As a matter of fact, Sudanese crossguards resemble not the Ottoman , but rather old Mamluk guards. One only has to check the book by Yucel to see that they are virtually identical twins, only the Sudanese are cruder. Ottoman ones are slender, with thin langets and are either silver or brass ( or silvered brass) Both Mamluk and Sudanese are massive and made out of iron. And the general construction of the entire swords is virtually identical : straight double-edged blades . Some Sudanese kaskaras have furrows virtually identical to the Mamluk one: the last one of the attached is an ancestor of the Doukerry:-) This is not surprising: Egyptian Mamluks controlled or semi-controlled Sudan for centuries, well before the establishment of the Ottoman Empire. Then, the Ottomans took some later Mamluk swords and modified them. I suspect that Persian influence played a role there. Attached Images

9th November 2018, 02:49 AM	#9
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	Jim, Thanks for the compliment. Ariel, I agree that your examples look externally similar to the kaskara. But I've not seen how their grip, cross-guard and blade are joined. Does the C-G have a slot in it that fits over the tang to the top of the blade with two grip scales held in place with the common three rivets OR do they go together like the kaskara with all wedged together by a one piece wooden grip fitted into the C-G hole and supported by the top langets? If the early swords and the kaskara assemblies are virtually the same, I support your view completely. The inside of the C-G shown as the subject sword is very similar to the kaskara. The quillon profile, materials, and methods of making are not alike, but that's not the point Say in 1800 or so some shade tree blacksmith in Eastern Sudan had an imported German blade and needed to make a C-G that would secure the three pieces together, he would look for a model that he could adapt to his needs. I believe he would like what the subject sword, contemporary and at hand, presents, forge a likeness from iron, and the prototype kaskara would be born. He is unlikely to search for an Abbasid relic to copy. Best regards, Ed Last edited by Edster; 9th November 2018 at 03:04 AM.

6th November 2018, 10:37 PM	#3
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	Francotolin, I'm not qualified to comment on your sword, but the repair looks dodgy to me. I'm really interested in the mechanics of how your blade, cross-guard and hilt are joined. This type of sword has been considered as a prototype to the Sudanese Kaskara, but I've never had an opportunity to explore the mechanics of it's joining. Also, the date of your sword type could inform when the Kaskara's mechanics could have been adopted. I assume the cross-guard is cast copper alloy, but its internal shape is basically the same as the Kaskara's 4-piece forge-welded iron construction.Is the bottom of the handle wedged into the top of the guard to hold the blade in place and secure all three parts together? Also, it looks like there is a pin in the handle that would attach the handle to the blades tang. Best regards, Ed

6th November 2018, 11:14 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I do not think it is welding: one cannot weld anything to the cowhorn. Modern adhesives ? Epoxy?

7th November 2018, 01:43 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	From what I can tell I agree with Ariel - epoxy and the cross guard is made of bronze.

7th November 2018, 07:10 AM	#6
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	I am not expert in "Turkish" weapons, nevertheless my view is, that you have nice kilij - from the category of "ordinary or normal kilijis" (very nice blade, nice handle, normal - maybe beg. of 20th century crossguard and maybe not the original one - I think made of brass, and it is always a pity that the scabbard is missing). Such miserable "repairs" (made quickly just to sell the sword asap) could be repaired, the sword needs restoreation. I think it is not from 18 century. My guess would be 19 century.