A firangi blade or??

Jens Nordlunde · 25th September 2005, 06:15 PM

This is from a firangi blade, but from where is the supposed to come, does anyone know?
I write ‘supposed’ as the blade has a ricasso, so maybe the blade is an Indian ‘copy’ blade, and not European at all.

Rick · 25th September 2005, 07:51 PM

Embossing , quite unusual !
Are there any marks around the periphery of the lettering to indicate this marking was a stamp Jens ?

Jens Nordlunde · 25th September 2005, 10:34 PM

Hi Rick, oh yes indeed, most unusual, but I must admit that the embossing is due to my bad photograph. Also, I was a bit surprised myself when I saw the picture, but the letters are stamped into the metal.

Karni, do you have any comments on this?
Do you know how common it was to make 'copy' blades of the European ones, and why, as the Indian blades were exported in a great number?

Jens

Rick · 25th September 2005, 10:41 PM

Oh , so they're stamped in marks !
They appear to be just the opposite .
Surely fooled my eye .

Jim McDougall · 26th September 2005, 04:58 PM

Hi Jens,
These 'firangi' blades seem to have typically been Solingen products, although there were certainly some variants. It seems that although the term 'firangi' is generally considered to be loosely translated as 'foreign', I have read that more specifically it meant 'Portuguese'. This alluded to the Portuguese trade location at Goa on the west coast of India, which was key to the trade with the west.

During the 18th century, which this blade appears by the familiar multiple fullering and the markings, Solingen was producing trade blades for many countries including Spain by this time, and it is not at all uncommon to see the names of famed Spanish makers of earlier times stamped on these blades (although the spellings and syntax of phrases widely varied). The use of the 'x's was also characteristic of these blades from Solingen, and they were placed simply as accents or puncuation in the stamped names or wording, and it seems that they always occurred in groupings of two or three.

The Mahrattas, who of course favored the thrusting khandas, also favored these straight 18th century blades commonly used in Europe by dragoons, and these did indeed have ricassos. It would seem that the trade in this Portuguese station in India accounted for considerable arrival of these trade blades in the 18th century, and I doubt native production of blades would have been worthwhile. I am not certain about subsequent native production of blades in regions where the khanda diffused, but it does not seem that native versions of blades would have carried copies of the markings if there were. Actually I think that most khandas are 'firangi' in terms of the blades

and I think most of these we see in collections are 18th century furbishings.
How 'bout a picture of the sword?
All the best,
Jim

Rick, I agree , at first those letters sure did look 'bubbled up' !!

and I thought we were goin' straight to Rajasthan!!!

-Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 26th September 2005, 05:50 PM

Hi Jim,
If you insist I will show the whole thing, but this is the most interesting. Have a look at the cheetahs (?), and have a look at the two elephants coming out from behind the cheetahs hind legs – the cheetahs are made in silver by the way. I am not sure if you can se it, but the cheetahs wear a collar of gold.
BTW does anyone recognise the mark?

Tim Simmons · 26th September 2005, 10:23 PM

The animals could be hunting dogs. In many cultures the dogs ability to be sent out and find the quarry has led to the dog being used as an auspicious symbol even if the dog was not a domestic pet as in the modern sense. They look like dogs to me anyway. Tim

Aqtai · 26th September 2005, 11:32 PM

Congratulations Jens, that is stunning!

25th September 2005, 06:15 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	A firangi blade or?? This is from a firangi blade, but from where is the supposed to come, does anyone know? I write ‘supposed’ as the blade has a ricasso, so maybe the blade is an Indian ‘copy’ blade, and not European at all. Attached Images

25th September 2005, 07:51 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Cast Blade ? Embossing , quite unusual ! Are there any marks around the periphery of the lettering to indicate this marking was a stamp Jens ?

26th September 2005, 05:50 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, If you insist I will show the whole thing, but this is the most interesting. Have a look at the cheetahs (?), and have a look at the two elephants coming out from behind the cheetahs hind legs – the cheetahs are made in silver by the way. I am not sure if you can se it, but the cheetahs wear a collar of gold. BTW does anyone recognise the mark? Attached Images Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 26th September 2005 at 06:08 PM.

26th September 2005, 11:32 PM	#8
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Wow! Congratulations Jens, that is stunning!

25th September 2005, 10:34 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rick, oh yes indeed, most unusual, but I must admit that the embossing is due to my bad photograph. Also, I was a bit surprised myself when I saw the picture, but the letters are stamped into the metal. Karni, do you have any comments on this? Do you know how common it was to make 'copy' blades of the European ones, and why, as the Indian blades were exported in a great number? Jens

25th September 2005, 10:41 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Oh , so they're stamped in marks ! They appear to be just the opposite . Surely fooled my eye .

26th September 2005, 04:58 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,949	Hi Jens, These 'firangi' blades seem to have typically been Solingen products, although there were certainly some variants. It seems that although the term 'firangi' is generally considered to be loosely translated as 'foreign', I have read that more specifically it meant 'Portuguese'. This alluded to the Portuguese trade location at Goa on the west coast of India, which was key to the trade with the west. During the 18th century, which this blade appears by the familiar multiple fullering and the markings, Solingen was producing trade blades for many countries including Spain by this time, and it is not at all uncommon to see the names of famed Spanish makers of earlier times stamped on these blades (although the spellings and syntax of phrases widely varied). The use of the 'x's was also characteristic of these blades from Solingen, and they were placed simply as accents or puncuation in the stamped names or wording, and it seems that they always occurred in groupings of two or three. The Mahrattas, who of course favored the thrusting khandas, also favored these straight 18th century blades commonly used in Europe by dragoons, and these did indeed have ricassos. It would seem that the trade in this Portuguese station in India accounted for considerable arrival of these trade blades in the 18th century, and I doubt native production of blades would have been worthwhile. I am not certain about subsequent native production of blades in regions where the khanda diffused, but it does not seem that native versions of blades would have carried copies of the markings if there were. Actually I think that most khandas are 'firangi' in terms of the blades and I think most of these we see in collections are 18th century furbishings. How 'bout a picture of the sword? All the best, Jim Rick, I agree , at first those letters sure did look 'bubbled up' !! and I thought we were goin' straight to Rajasthan!!! -Jim

26th September 2005, 10:23 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The animals could be hunting dogs. In many cultures the dogs ability to be sent out and find the quarry has led to the dog being used as an auspicious symbol even if the dog was not a domestic pet as in the modern sense. They look like dogs to me anyway. Tim