Neolithic sword found in SW China

Bill M · 4th January 2008, 11:43 AM

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...nt_7258614.htm

Bill M · 4th January 2008, 11:45 AM

"Be aware that this article was likely written by someone who got the
facts confused after interviewing the archaeologists. The artifacts
recovered span a very large range of time, from the neolithic to the
Han. Ba culture willow leaf blades date concurrent with the Zhou
Dynasty and are definitely not neolithic.

Willow leaf blades with a tapering tang, crafted by the Ba culture,
are generally believed to have first appeared during the early
Western Zhou Dynasty (c. 1111-770 BCE). Examples have been found
dating as late as the Warring States period of the Eastern Zhou
Dynasty (c. 453-221 BCE). The term "Bashu" is often applied to
artifacts of this type, since the Ba and Shu cultures came to be
closely linked, particularly during the Eastern Zhou, and some of
their artifacts are similar in design. In reality, Ba willow leaf
blades can generally be distinguished from Shu weapons by the taper
at the tang, but the term Bashu has stuck in common reference.

Cheers,
Mel "

Jim McDougall · 4th January 2008, 11:15 PM

Most interesting Bill!
Any information on the additional update by Mel, where it appeared, and who he is? Seems to have excellent knowledge on ancient Chinese weapons and history.

Bill M · 6th January 2008, 02:37 AM

Actually and surprisingly, Mel is short for Melanie. I'll PM you.

Gavin Nugent · 6th January 2008, 02:56 AM

Oh do share more gentlemen, how interesting.

Gav

Jim McDougall · 6th January 2008, 07:19 PM

Hi Gav,
The most interesting rebuttal concerning this news item by Mel reflects the very common misperceptions often appearing in the media on early weapons.

It has long been a personal pet peeve of mine that so little attention to accuracy is afforded the description of edged weapons in many, if not most cases, with not only news items, but historic literature.
I have read so many accounts of military history, historic narratives and accounts that will go into considerable detail on artillery and firearms, even down to caliber and even ammunition down to the grain! yet any mention of the edged weapons are reduced to sword, curved or straight....and common misconceptions such as a sword carried by a Highlander must be a 'broadsword'.

Several years ago, a broadsword was displayed at a museum as the remarkable discovery of a crusaders broadsword...yet it was actually a Sudanese kaskara.
In the early 20th century, a brass hilted broadsword was discovered in an excavation in New York, which was of very classic form. The claim was that this was an ancient Roman gladius, and you can imagine where it went from there! It was later revealed that this was actually a U.S. M1833 artillery gunners sword that was of a form commonly used before and during the Civil War period. It was indeed designed on a neoclassic design based on those ancient swords, but the brass hilt, not to mention the federal eagle in the pommel, should have been the giveaway!

As we know, things in the media have not improved much

All the best,
Jim

4th January 2008, 11:43 AM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Neolithic sword found in SW China http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...nt_7258614.htm

4th January 2008, 11:45 AM	#2
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	More information on this article "Be aware that this article was likely written by someone who got the facts confused after interviewing the archaeologists. The artifacts recovered span a very large range of time, from the neolithic to the Han. Ba culture willow leaf blades date concurrent with the Zhou Dynasty and are definitely not neolithic. Willow leaf blades with a tapering tang, crafted by the Ba culture, are generally believed to have first appeared during the early Western Zhou Dynasty (c. 1111-770 BCE). Examples have been found dating as late as the Warring States period of the Eastern Zhou Dynasty (c. 453-221 BCE). The term "Bashu" is often applied to artifacts of this type, since the Ba and Shu cultures came to be closely linked, particularly during the Eastern Zhou, and some of their artifacts are similar in design. In reality, Ba willow leaf blades can generally be distinguished from Shu weapons by the taper at the tang, but the term Bashu has stuck in common reference. Cheers, Mel "

6th January 2008, 02:56 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Do share more gentlemen Oh do share more gentlemen, how interesting. Gav

4th January 2008, 11:15 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Most interesting Bill! Any information on the additional update by Mel, where it appeared, and who he is? Seems to have excellent knowledge on ancient Chinese weapons and history.

6th January 2008, 02:37 AM	#4
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Actually and surprisingly, Mel is short for Melanie. I'll PM you.

6th January 2008, 07:19 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Hi Gav, The most interesting rebuttal concerning this news item by Mel reflects the very common misperceptions often appearing in the media on early weapons. It has long been a personal pet peeve of mine that so little attention to accuracy is afforded the description of edged weapons in many, if not most cases, with not only news items, but historic literature. I have read so many accounts of military history, historic narratives and accounts that will go into considerable detail on artillery and firearms, even down to caliber and even ammunition down to the grain! yet any mention of the edged weapons are reduced to sword, curved or straight....and common misconceptions such as a sword carried by a Highlander must be a 'broadsword'. Several years ago, a broadsword was displayed at a museum as the remarkable discovery of a crusaders broadsword...yet it was actually a Sudanese kaskara. In the early 20th century, a brass hilted broadsword was discovered in an excavation in New York, which was of very classic form. The claim was that this was an ancient Roman gladius, and you can imagine where it went from there! It was later revealed that this was actually a U.S. M1833 artillery gunners sword that was of a form commonly used before and during the Civil War period. It was indeed designed on a neoclassic design based on those ancient swords, but the brass hilt, not to mention the federal eagle in the pommel, should have been the giveaway! As we know, things in the media have not improved much All the best, Jim