A VENETIAN SCHIAVONA LATE 17TH CENTURY

Cerjak · 23rd February 2017, 06:05 PM

O.L. 102.5 cm ; blade L. 87 cm; blade width at hilt 5 cm.
With early original leather grip.
Any comment on it would be welcome
Cerjak

CSinTX · 23rd February 2017, 11:22 PM

Very nice. Is that a button on top of the pommel?

Cerjak · 24th February 2017, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSinTX

Very nice. Is that a button on top of the pommel?

photo from T. Hoog

Yes it is a button ,the same features could be found in 2 shiavonas in the Cleveland Museum of Art
(photo from T. Hoog)

Jim McDougall · 27th February 2017, 08:05 AM

Jean Luc, I regret that nobody has responded on this interesting schiavona, so this evening I went through everything I could find on these swords. I was able to find some very good discussions here and other material from back to around 2003.
As Nathan Robinson has well noted in his great paper on these on my 'My Armoury', it is quite speculative in many cases in classifying these and dating them. There were many variations, and these were used through many European countries in addition to their more common association with Venetian mercenaries and the guards for the Doges palace in Venice.
They are even known to have been used in France.

From most of what I could find, this example would most likely be from around second half of 17th c. as the trellis configuration (basket, known as 'gitterkorb' , Seifert, 1966) is in the 'single mouse stairs' style.
With more incised lines in 'design' it seems beyond the often plain or rather munitions style bars of the more military forms.

These were often joined with many blade forms, so the schiavona term is for this style hilt and its variations.

This would correspond primarily to the hilt category #2 in Oakeshotts classification of schiavona hilts. The brass 'katzenkopfknauf' (=cats head) in brass (often bronze) has the oft seen circle surrounded by dots in relief. Here there are a number of variations as well, from faces and other features to a simple dome or boss in the center of this distinctive pommel.
The capstan button seems unusual as these pommels are usually peened.

There are various articles on the schiavona published, among them:
1. "A Schiavona Rapier", Claude Blair, JAAS, Vol.V #12, Dec, 1967 p.53-54

2. "Blankwaffen Schiavona" Gerhard Seifert, ' Deutsches Waffenjournal'
Vol.2 #12, Dec.1966, p42-47

3 "The Rapier and Smallsword", AVB Norman, 1980, p65

4. "Cut and Thrust Weapons", E Wagner, 1967.

5.The article by Nathan Robinson, MyArmoury.com

and of course others as well as many excerpts from auctions etc. online.

kronckew · 27th February 2017, 10:44 AM

the pommel button is also peened. they do this frequently as it's more secure as opposed to peening on the countersunk pommel itself then filing/grinding it flush. also easier to remove if later repairs are needed. beware the threaded acorn nut tho. a sign of poor modern copies from china/india.

fernando · 27th February 2017, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...They are even known to have been used in France...

...And Spain ?

Jim McDougall · 27th February 2017, 05:44 PM

Thank you Wayne, very salient point about the capstan being peened, and I was thinking of those which are sometimes screwed on (I think a later feature perhaps).

Fernando, thank you for the notation on Spain, who clearly used them as well with the provincial contacts in Italian context. I had not specifically noted Spain as I had used the broader description of European countries as having used the schiavona style hilt, but mentioned France singly as having these hilts in some cases as to me it seemed an unusual instance.
Clearly I might have chosen better wording. Always appreciated

23rd February 2017, 06:05 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	A VENETIAN SCHIAVONA LATE 17TH CENTURY O.L. 102.5 cm ; blade L. 87 cm; blade width at hilt 5 cm. With early original leather grip. Any comment on it would be welcome Cerjak Attached Images Last edited by Cerjak; 23rd February 2017 at 06:16 PM.

23rd February 2017, 11:22 PM	#2
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	Very nice. Is that a button on top of the pommel?

27th February 2017, 08:05 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	Jean Luc, I regret that nobody has responded on this interesting schiavona, so this evening I went through everything I could find on these swords. I was able to find some very good discussions here and other material from back to around 2003. As Nathan Robinson has well noted in his great paper on these on my 'My Armoury', it is quite speculative in many cases in classifying these and dating them. There were many variations, and these were used through many European countries in addition to their more common association with Venetian mercenaries and the guards for the Doges palace in Venice. They are even known to have been used in France. From most of what I could find, this example would most likely be from around second half of 17th c. as the trellis configuration (basket, known as 'gitterkorb' , Seifert, 1966) is in the 'single mouse stairs' style. With more incised lines in 'design' it seems beyond the often plain or rather munitions style bars of the more military forms. These were often joined with many blade forms, so the schiavona term is for this style hilt and its variations. This would correspond primarily to the hilt category #2 in Oakeshotts classification of schiavona hilts. The brass 'katzenkopfknauf' (=cats head) in brass (often bronze) has the oft seen circle surrounded by dots in relief. Here there are a number of variations as well, from faces and other features to a simple dome or boss in the center of this distinctive pommel. The capstan button seems unusual as these pommels are usually peened. There are various articles on the schiavona published, among them: 1. "A Schiavona Rapier", Claude Blair, JAAS, Vol.V #12, Dec, 1967 p.53-54 2. "Blankwaffen Schiavona" Gerhard Seifert, ' Deutsches Waffenjournal' Vol.2 #12, Dec.1966, p42-47 3 "The Rapier and Smallsword", AVB Norman, 1980, p65 4. "Cut and Thrust Weapons", E Wagner, 1967. 5.The article by Nathan Robinson, MyArmoury.com and of course others as well as many excerpts from auctions etc. online.

27th February 2017, 10:44 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	the pommel button is also peened. they do this frequently as it's more secure as opposed to peening on the countersunk pommel itself then filing/grinding it flush. also easier to remove if later repairs are needed. beware the threaded acorn nut tho. a sign of poor modern copies from china/india.

27th February 2017, 05:44 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	Thank you Wayne, very salient point about the capstan being peened, and I was thinking of those which are sometimes screwed on (I think a later feature perhaps). Fernando, thank you for the notation on Spain, who clearly used them as well with the provincial contacts in Italian context. I had not specifically noted Spain as I had used the broader description of European countries as having used the schiavona style hilt, but mentioned France singly as having these hilts in some cases as to me it seemed an unusual instance. Clearly I might have chosen better wording. Always appreciated