Keris Majapahit

Mudi · 13th July 2006, 06:55 AM

These four keris Majapahit. They come from my mother family and are family pusaka. Both scholar Edward Frey and David Van Duuren call these keris Majapahit. David Van Duuren say in his book that these keris type may be 1,000 year old. They are for protection not for stabbing. Keris A is only 14 cm long same as smallest one in collection Tropenmusem. Keris B is keris Majapahit picit. This forged by hand and three impressions of thumb can be seen on the blade. Two are in front side one on back side. These keris stay with old stone Ganesha and are feed every day with incense.

Lei Shen Dao · 13th July 2006, 01:57 PM

Very nice

A keris picit/pijat is quite rare from what I know. It indicates a very "strong" Empu

Nice photos

nechesh · 13th July 2006, 02:51 PM

The name these Western writers use (keris majapahit) is probably a bit inaccurate since most of these don't actually originate from the Majapahit period. Perhap you would agree that Keris Sajen is a better name.

Pak Mudi, could you tell us how long these pusaka have been in your family?

Mudi · 14th July 2006, 10:54 AM

Pak Nechesh

I do not think keris sajen is good for these keris. Sajen means offering of food or flower. Keris membela means protection keris. I like name of keris membela asli mean keris protection real. Another word from english would be amulet. That is these early keris.

You are right that keris Majapahit not correct way to call these. They were made before Majapahit. Funny that we take western words and use these words. So these keris are called now keris Majapahit. Indonesians people do not mind words that western scholar put to keris. The words that paint the keris are not so important. Any person can paint or say of keris what they want.

My believe is that keris Majapahit or keris membala asli become over time more than amulet. It become weapon. I also believe Chinese and India had something to make this happen in history. China and India long time trading in Indonesia. This is many hundred years past. This is all before VOC come to Indonesia in 1602.

No one man I know real expert di keris. My father always say to bad they can not talk. I say to father, yes. That is sad.

How long as pusaka in my family mother? I can not tell. My mother would say for all time. That would mean all her time.

nechesh · 14th July 2006, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudi

These keris stay with old stone Ganesha and are feed every day with incense.

Please forgive my misunderstanding, i had assumed from the other thread that you were a Moslem.

Moslem or Hindu, i am intriqued that you would deem it proper to place such obviously important family pusaka on international public display. Is that commonly done in your part of Indonesia?

Mudi · 14th July 2006, 03:28 PM

Pak Nechech,

My father Bugis, my mother Bali. So, I am in middle of Hindu Dharma di Bali and Islam. Or as you say Muslim. Indonesia founded as democratic based on unity in diversity. In Indonesia, some 400 groups of people here. We are young democratic nation. We have very rich culture and history. Orang Belanda know this best. Ask your Dutch friend.

Why you ask about to display pusaka? For Indonesian to show pusaka we hope understanding of our culture. Many museum show pusaka. Is it bad when I show my own family pusaka? I am very happy my family keep many things. When I grow up these things talk to me as little boy. As man now they talk more.

Maybe these keris talk to you.

nechesh · 14th July 2006, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudi

Pak Nechech,

My father Bugis, my mother Bali. So, I am in middle of Hindu Dharma di Bali and Islam. Or as you say Muslim. Indonesia founded as democratic based on unity in diversity. In Indonesia, some 400 groups of people here. We are young democratic nation. We have very rich culture and history. Orang Belanda know this best. Ask your Dutch friend.

So i guess what you are saying is that you come from a mixed marriage. Forgive me, but i was just trying to dtermine whether you spoke of the keris from a Muslim or Hindu perspective since i would image that there are subtle differences in the way one would relate to the keris depending upon one's spiritual beliefs. Still, i don't quite see how someone can be both a Hindu and a Muslim. I am very aware that you have a very rich, multi-layered culture and history. I am not sure who you mean by my Dutch friend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudi

Why you ask about to display pusaka? For Indonesian to show pusaka we hope understanding of our culture. Many museum show pusaka. Is it bad when I show my own family pusaka? I am very happy my family keep many things. When I grow up these things talk to me as little boy. As man now they talk more.
Maybe these keris talk to you.

Please correct me if i am wrong, but i would think that keris pusaka that are in museums would no longer really be active pusaka. If they were they would still be with the families, wouldn't they? I would think that once in a museum the chain of the pusaka is somewhat broken.
I would never tell another that it is "good" or "bad" to place their family's pusaka (or anything they own) on display to the public. That is between you, your relatives and your ancestors. It just seems odd to me. I ask the question of you because i am trying to determine what IS the tradition about this within your culture. It has been my understanding that in Javanese culture it is just not done, that one's pusaka, though a matter of intense family pride, is never put on public display like this. The internet is not the same as showing friends and acquaintances who might visit your home. Anyone can look at these, even people you don't like or those who have animosity or ill will towards you. They can also take these images and use them anyway they like. This is why it seems odd to me. What i am trying to determine is if i am correct about the tradition of this in Jawa and if that tradition is perhaps different in different parts of Indonesia.

PenangsangII · 2nd July 2010, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

So i guess what you are saying is that you come from a mixed marriage. Forgive me, but i was just trying to dtermine whether you spoke of the keris from a Muslim or Hindu perspective since i would image that there are subtle differences in the way one would relate to the keris depending upon one's spiritual beliefs. Still, i don't quite see how someone can be both a Hindu and a Muslim. I am very aware that you have a very rich, multi-layered culture and history. I am not sure who you mean by my Dutch friend.

Please correct me if i am wrong, but i would think that keris pusaka that are in museums would no longer really be active pusaka. If they were they would still be with the families, wouldn't they? I would think that once in a museum the chain of the pusaka is somewhat broken.
I would never tell another that it is "good" or "bad" to place their family's pusaka (or anything they own) on display to the public. That is between you, your relatives and your ancestors. It just seems odd to me. I ask the question of you because i am trying to determine what IS the tradition about this within your culture. It has been my understanding that in Javanese culture it is just not done, that one's pusaka, though a matter of intense family pride, is never put on public display like this. The internet is not the same as showing friends and acquaintances who might visit your home. Anyone can look at these, even people you don't like or those who have animosity or ill will towards you. They can also take these images and use them anyway they like. This is why it seems odd to me. What i am trying to determine is if i am correct about the tradition of this in Jawa and if that tradition is perhaps different in different parts of Indonesia.

Nechesh,

Your knowledge with regards to the tradition of keris pusaka is outstanding, whilst many Indonesians (or Malauysians or Southern Thai) themselves have strayed away from the ancestors way of life.

Thank you for reminding us.

David · 2nd July 2010, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Nechesh,

Your knowledge with regards to the tradition of keris pusaka is outstanding, whilst many Indonesians (or Malauysians or Southern Thai) themselves have strayed away from the ancestors way of life.

Thank you for reminding us.

Thanks for your kind comments Penangsang (yes, i was Nechesh on these forums in a previous life

). Interesting to see this thread resurface after so many years. I don't think Mark quite understood the conversation Mudi and i were having at the time or the mutual understanding we were attempting to forge. Sometimes it take a little bit longer to bridge the barriers of language and culture to fully comprehend what each party is actually saying. :-)

Tim Simmons · 14th July 2006, 10:24 PM

Thank you I find these fascinating, I like B the most. They have the mystery I see in some African items.

nechesh · 14th July 2006, 10:42 PM

Agreed Tim. This type of keris has been shrouded in mystery for some time. Have you looked at the one's up on Alan's website?

Mudi · 15th July 2006, 02:56 AM

Pagi Pak Nechesh

Mixed marriage. I never think of that. Both parents Indonesian and nice brown skin! In Indonesia is normal for sons to follow father. My KTP identity card say Muslim for me. Permisi Pak no more to public discuss about religion. In warung we drink together kopi and talk religion OK. Boss forum say this. In Bali Hindu more way of life than religion. When I say Dutch friend I only mean ask person from Netherlands about our history. They have best museums about Indonesian culture.

Pusaka not about power. Pusaka mean what in English is word heirloom. Do you have book Art of Indonesia? The title of book is Art of Indonesia Pusaka and all in book from National Museum in Jakarta. We call this museum museum gajah because of big elephants out front this museum. In Java in Kraton pusaka kraton special ceremony and procession of pusaka for all to see. In Italy mona lisa still pusaka for people from Italy but on wall in museum Paris France. In Indonesia some pusaka with power and for use in ceremony kept private. This because fear to use power in not right way. Some lontar kept locked because information is dangerous if wrong person have this knowledge. This lontar more than pusaka.

I not worry to show keris. Keris is heart of Indonesia. If we keep all our keris away and not seen by other people from world around then they not learn about us and our culture. Some primitive culture believe photo can take power away. Some people in Indonesia still believe that. I do not believe that and like to show keris. I am teacher. For me good teacher mean he is good student and love to learn new thing. He so excited with what he learn that he want to tell others about that. Teacher is not to train student. That is job of instructor. A good teacher also learn from student. I believe all men teacher in some way. Indonesia founded on idea of unity in diversity. To make unity we must share our culture with our brothers. Brothers many Indonesians think all men brothers. I hope I explain OK.

nechesh · 15th July 2006, 07:10 AM

Pak Mudi, i commend you for your desire to teach and inform the world about Indonesian culture. Frankly i would much rather hear about your history from native Indonesians than from the Dutch, though it is true that they probably have the finest keris collections in the world in their museums. But the history of a people told by their conquerers and colonizers can often be misleading.

I think that pusaka has everything to do with power. On a royal level it deals with the power and right of rule amongst othe things. On lesser class levels it deals with the power of a kinship group, passed from generation to generation.
The Mona Lisa is NOT pusaka. One might look at it as a national treasure, but as you point out, which nation. DaVinci was Italian, yet it resides in the Louvre in France. I think at this point it has become such an icon that it can be considered a world treasure. But it is not the heirloom of any kinship group and does not serve the same purpose in Italian or world culture (if there is such a thing) as pusaka.
When the royal regala is presented in ceremony and there is a procession of teh royal pusaka you really don't believe this is about power? Possession of the royal regala asserts ones right to rule. This has everything to do with power.
The word pusaka is used in a number of ways in the description of keris and other heirloom items. For some it describes the quality of the keris. For others it is more personal. I have heard some people argue that only royal and court pieces can truly be considered pusaka. Others will argue that keris on any class level that are owned and passed down within any kinship group also qualify as pusaka. I tend to favor this second argument. If a keris is sitting on permanent display in a museum is it still serving it's purpose as a pusaka for anyone's kinship group? We call it pusaka in respect for it's past history or the incredible quality of it's workmanship, but hasn't it's chain of power been broken?

Mudi · 15th July 2006, 07:50 AM

I am sorry Pak Nechesh. Pusaka mean leave behind. Look kamus bahasa Indonesia. It mean heirloom and that all. Pusaka have nothing to do with power. If western way is to make more of word pusaka then OK but not the meaning in Indonesia. Some pusaka have power. Not all pusaka have power. Most pusaka have no power. I can only say about pusaka what I know and learn in my culture. Sorry again for this not understanding.

Marcus · 27th November 2015, 10:30 PM

Comments?

When the package was opened the room filled with smells of spice and incense.

Sajen · 28th November 2015, 11:38 AM

Nice, (very?) old keris sajen pijitan.

Regards,
Detlef

13th July 2006, 06:55 AM	#1
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Keris Majapahit These four keris Majapahit. They come from my mother family and are family pusaka. Both scholar Edward Frey and David Van Duuren call these keris Majapahit. David Van Duuren say in his book that these keris type may be 1,000 year old. They are for protection not for stabbing. Keris A is only 14 cm long same as smallest one in collection Tropenmusem. Keris B is keris Majapahit picit. This forged by hand and three impressions of thumb can be seen on the blade. Two are in front side one on back side. These keris stay with old stone Ganesha and are feed every day with incense. Attached Images

27th November 2015, 10:30 PM	#15
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Just in from Bali Comments? When the package was opened the room filled with smells of spice and incense. Attached Images

13th July 2006, 01:57 PM	#2
Lei Shen Dao Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 43	Very nice A keris picit/pijat is quite rare from what I know. It indicates a very "strong" Empu Nice photos

13th July 2006, 02:51 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	The name these Western writers use (keris majapahit) is probably a bit inaccurate since most of these don't actually originate from the Majapahit period. Perhap you would agree that Keris Sajen is a better name. Pak Mudi, could you tell us how long these pusaka have been in your family?

14th July 2006, 10:54 AM	#4
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Pak Nechesh I do not think keris sajen is good for these keris. Sajen means offering of food or flower. Keris membela means protection keris. I like name of keris membela asli mean keris protection real. Another word from english would be amulet. That is these early keris. You are right that keris Majapahit not correct way to call these. They were made before Majapahit. Funny that we take western words and use these words. So these keris are called now keris Majapahit. Indonesians people do not mind words that western scholar put to keris. The words that paint the keris are not so important. Any person can paint or say of keris what they want. My believe is that keris Majapahit or keris membala asli become over time more than amulet. It become weapon. I also believe Chinese and India had something to make this happen in history. China and India long time trading in Indonesia. This is many hundred years past. This is all before VOC come to Indonesia in 1602. No one man I know real expert di keris. My father always say to bad they can not talk. I say to father, yes. That is sad. How long as pusaka in my family mother? I can not tell. My mother would say for all time. That would mean all her time.

14th July 2006, 03:28 PM	#6
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Pak Nechech, My father Bugis, my mother Bali. So, I am in middle of Hindu Dharma di Bali and Islam. Or as you say Muslim. Indonesia founded as democratic based on unity in diversity. In Indonesia, some 400 groups of people here. We are young democratic nation. We have very rich culture and history. Orang Belanda know this best. Ask your Dutch friend. Why you ask about to display pusaka? For Indonesian to show pusaka we hope understanding of our culture. Many museum show pusaka. Is it bad when I show my own family pusaka? I am very happy my family keep many things. When I grow up these things talk to me as little boy. As man now they talk more. Maybe these keris talk to you.

14th July 2006, 10:24 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thank you I find these fascinating, I like B the most. They have the mystery I see in some African items.

14th July 2006, 10:42 PM	#11
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Agreed Tim. This type of keris has been shrouded in mystery for some time. Have you looked at the one's up on Alan's website?

15th July 2006, 02:56 AM	#12
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Pagi Pak Nechesh Mixed marriage. I never think of that. Both parents Indonesian and nice brown skin! In Indonesia is normal for sons to follow father. My KTP identity card say Muslim for me. Permisi Pak no more to public discuss about religion. In warung we drink together kopi and talk religion OK. Boss forum say this. In Bali Hindu more way of life than religion. When I say Dutch friend I only mean ask person from Netherlands about our history. They have best museums about Indonesian culture. Pusaka not about power. Pusaka mean what in English is word heirloom. Do you have book Art of Indonesia? The title of book is Art of Indonesia Pusaka and all in book from National Museum in Jakarta. We call this museum museum gajah because of big elephants out front this museum. In Java in Kraton pusaka kraton special ceremony and procession of pusaka for all to see. In Italy mona lisa still pusaka for people from Italy but on wall in museum Paris France. In Indonesia some pusaka with power and for use in ceremony kept private. This because fear to use power in not right way. Some lontar kept locked because information is dangerous if wrong person have this knowledge. This lontar more than pusaka. I not worry to show keris. Keris is heart of Indonesia. If we keep all our keris away and not seen by other people from world around then they not learn about us and our culture. Some primitive culture believe photo can take power away. Some people in Indonesia still believe that. I do not believe that and like to show keris. I am teacher. For me good teacher mean he is good student and love to learn new thing. He so excited with what he learn that he want to tell others about that. Teacher is not to train student. That is job of instructor. A good teacher also learn from student. I believe all men teacher in some way. Indonesia founded on idea of unity in diversity. To make unity we must share our culture with our brothers. Brothers many Indonesians think all men brothers. I hope I explain OK.

15th July 2006, 07:10 AM	#13
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Pak Mudi, i commend you for your desire to teach and inform the world about Indonesian culture. Frankly i would much rather hear about your history from native Indonesians than from the Dutch, though it is true that they probably have the finest keris collections in the world in their museums. But the history of a people told by their conquerers and colonizers can often be misleading. I think that pusaka has everything to do with power. On a royal level it deals with the power and right of rule amongst othe things. On lesser class levels it deals with the power of a kinship group, passed from generation to generation. The Mona Lisa is NOT pusaka. One might look at it as a national treasure, but as you point out, which nation. DaVinci was Italian, yet it resides in the Louvre in France. I think at this point it has become such an icon that it can be considered a world treasure. But it is not the heirloom of any kinship group and does not serve the same purpose in Italian or world culture (if there is such a thing) as pusaka. When the royal regala is presented in ceremony and there is a procession of teh royal pusaka you really don't believe this is about power? Possession of the royal regala asserts ones right to rule. This has everything to do with power. The word pusaka is used in a number of ways in the description of keris and other heirloom items. For some it describes the quality of the keris. For others it is more personal. I have heard some people argue that only royal and court pieces can truly be considered pusaka. Others will argue that keris on any class level that are owned and passed down within any kinship group also qualify as pusaka. I tend to favor this second argument. If a keris is sitting on permanent display in a museum is it still serving it's purpose as a pusaka for anyone's kinship group? We call it pusaka in respect for it's past history or the incredible quality of it's workmanship, but hasn't it's chain of power been broken?

15th July 2006, 07:50 AM	#14
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	I am sorry Pak Nechesh. Pusaka mean leave behind. Look kamus bahasa Indonesia. It mean heirloom and that all. Pusaka have nothing to do with power. If western way is to make more of word pusaka then OK but not the meaning in Indonesia. Some pusaka have power. Not all pusaka have power. Most pusaka have no power. I can only say about pusaka what I know and learn in my culture. Sorry again for this not understanding.

28th November 2015, 11:38 AM	#16
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Nice, (very?) old keris sajen pijitan. Regards, Detlef