More info regarding this Georgian Kindjal

Hatumesh · 24th June 2009, 09:43 PM

Hi all,
I'm new here, so please bear with me...

The Georgian Kindjal in the pics is a....Georgian Kindjal. That's all I can say about it.
Can any of you add details regarding this specific one and also regarding this kind of dagger in general?

It's been ill treated for the past 50 years, hence the deep rust. I'd like to restore it and I need tips-and-tricks for that (not too profession - i'm doing at home with near-zero budget).

The hilt and scabbard are silver.

Thanks a bunch,
Hatumesh.

TVV · 25th June 2009, 01:56 AM

Very nice kindjal, Hatumesh,

Ariel, Rivkin and the other Caucasus connoisseurs will hopefully comment on it. As for me, even after reading Astvatsaturian and Askhabov, plus browsing Miller's catalogue, I just do not feel I can differentiate well enough between the various kindjal forms just based on the decoration motives, etc.

As for the state of preservation, I actually think it has held up remarkably well, especially when it comes to the scabbard leather and the hilt. The blade has some pitting and patination, but based on the pictures there is no active rust, so I would personally leave it as is.

Best regards,
Teodor

Rivkin · 25th June 2009, 07:13 PM

It's not Georgian, its a rather classic Circassian, blade is old - first half of XIXth century at least, the rest is probably from 1850-1860, but can just as well be nice muhajir work from afterwords. I would be interested in acquiring or exchanging it.

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2009, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

It's not Georgian, its a rather classic Circassian, blade is old - first half of XIXth century at least, the rest is probably from 1850-1860, but can just as well be nice muhajir work from afterwords. I would be interested in acquiring or exchanging it.

Hi Rivkin,
Nice to see you posting! Its been a long, long time!!! Your insight into things Caucasian has been missed around here, and much appreciated here on this interesting example.

All the best,
Jim

ariel · 25th June 2009, 10:13 PM

According to our mutual acquaintance, Alan, this one is Megrelian, from Western Georgia, most likely from Zugdidi.
I cannot argue with either opinion, both Rivkin and Alan are orders of magnitude more knowledgeable, but the difference is striking. My guess . with rare exceptions( Gurian kindjals, Bol'shie Atagi blades and perhaps couple more instances I do not know about) it is exceedingly difficult to pinpoint the exact origin. The area is tiny, the migration of masters and ethnic motives was enormous, and after ~ 1860 every national element was used interchangeably within the mass production in workshops in Tbilisi and Vladikavkaz.

Nice one, no doubt. I would clean it to the max, without erasing the symbols.

ariel · 25th June 2009, 10:16 PM

I, too, would love to exchange it.

Rivkin · 25th June 2009, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Rivkin,
Nice to see you posting! Its been a long, long time!!! Your insight into things Caucasian has been missed around here, and much appreciated here on this interesting example.

All the best,
Jim

Long time James; I would much rather write the original poster a private message but since he disabled both P.Ms and emails I have no other way of contacting him; as before I have no reason to participate in any forum discussions, sorry.
It is a relatively nice piece though. Alan does not believe in existance of Circassian weapons per se.

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2009, 10:41 PM

No problem Rivkin. Since he is a new member, his email and PM status is not yet activated. Still good to see you posting even if you decline participating in discussions. Just wanted to note that your contributions were in my opinion always well placed and informative, I'm sorry you are reluctant to post here as well.

Wishing you all the best,
Jim

Andrew · 28th June 2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Long time James; I would much rather write the original poster a private message but since he disabled both P.Ms and emails I have no other way of contacting him; as before I have no reason to participate in any forum discussions, sorry.
It is a relatively nice piece though. Alan does not believe in existance of Circassian weapons per se.

Since you "have no reason to participate in any forum discussions" would you like me to disable your account? You can lurk without the benefit of posting or PM privileges just fine.

24th June 2009, 09:43 PM	#1
Hatumesh Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Tel-Aviv, Israel Posts: 24	More info regarding this Georgian Kindjal Hi all, I'm new here, so please bear with me... The Georgian Kindjal in the pics is a....Georgian Kindjal. That's all I can say about it. Can any of you add details regarding this specific one and also regarding this kind of dagger in general? It's been ill treated for the past 50 years, hence the deep rust. I'd like to restore it and I need tips-and-tricks for that (not too profession - i'm doing at home with near-zero budget). The hilt and scabbard are silver. Thanks a bunch, Hatumesh. Attached Images

25th June 2009, 01:56 AM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	Very nice kindjal, Hatumesh, Ariel, Rivkin and the other Caucasus connoisseurs will hopefully comment on it. As for me, even after reading Astvatsaturian and Askhabov, plus browsing Miller's catalogue, I just do not feel I can differentiate well enough between the various kindjal forms just based on the decoration motives, etc. As for the state of preservation, I actually think it has held up remarkably well, especially when it comes to the scabbard leather and the hilt. The blade has some pitting and patination, but based on the pictures there is no active rust, so I would personally leave it as is. Best regards, Teodor

25th June 2009, 07:13 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	It's not Georgian, its a rather classic Circassian, blade is old - first half of XIXth century at least, the rest is probably from 1850-1860, but can just as well be nice muhajir work from afterwords. I would be interested in acquiring or exchanging it.

25th June 2009, 10:13 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	According to our mutual acquaintance, Alan, this one is Megrelian, from Western Georgia, most likely from Zugdidi. I cannot argue with either opinion, both Rivkin and Alan are orders of magnitude more knowledgeable, but the difference is striking. My guess . with rare exceptions( Gurian kindjals, Bol'shie Atagi blades and perhaps couple more instances I do not know about) it is exceedingly difficult to pinpoint the exact origin. The area is tiny, the migration of masters and ethnic motives was enormous, and after ~ 1860 every national element was used interchangeably within the mass production in workshops in Tbilisi and Vladikavkaz. Nice one, no doubt. I would clean it to the max, without erasing the symbols.

25th June 2009, 10:16 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I, too, would love to exchange it.

25th June 2009, 10:41 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	No problem Rivkin. Since he is a new member, his email and PM status is not yet activated. Still good to see you posting even if you decline participating in discussions. Just wanted to note that your contributions were in my opinion always well placed and informative, I'm sorry you are reluctant to post here as well. Wishing you all the best, Jim