This sold today on Ebay, What manner of sword is it?

machinist · 17th July 2014, 02:28 AM

I have never seen one quite like it, with the cup hilt I felt it belonged in the European forum although in may be South American?

Rick · 17th July 2014, 04:10 AM

The cup looks like a casting; if not of aluminum it must be heavy .
It also looks like the fuller runs off the point; maybe re-shaped ?
Were any dimensions given ?

Jim McDougall · 17th July 2014, 04:26 AM

I agree with Rick, that blade looks like a hollow ground cavalry sabre type blade, but seems shortened while keeping the radiused hatchet type point.
The 'cup or bowl' hilt does look heavy and cast, but seems to be a Spanish colonial blacksmith grade creation, which could be from Central or South America to Philippines, the Spanish Main in the 19th century was still pretty vast.
The ferruled grip and appearance recalls sectioned hilts seen on certain Spanish swords (round tang espadas) and others.
There seems no limit to variations of these ersatz type weapons, but they are intriguing.

machinist · 17th July 2014, 04:46 PM

Rick - It was 27.25 inches long overall. the seller said the cup was rusty as the rest of it so I would assume steel, it must have been quite heavy from how thick it looks.

Jim - Trying to tie down a original source for a grip like that does seem rather difficult for the reasons you mentioned, it just seems like such a distinctive sword, almost a parody of a cutlass that it really incited my curiosity.

Thanks for the responses

Jim McDougall · 17th July 2014, 05:50 PM

Thanks for the added notes Machinist . The word 'parody' is brilliantly used here!!! actually that in a sense is what many of these arms curiosities were in Spanish colonial context, and many were simply interpretations of arms used as 'a sword' just for that sake alone.

I have seen many weapons from Mexico which were from the Spanish colonial period which did indeed seem 'parodies', for example a clearly contrived shallow cup guard, with straight crossguard beneath it. It was clearly redundant and not a combat weapon, the blade was a thin, dull and apparently some sort of practice blade. I have seen blades which looked like a straight sword blade but was heavy, clumsy and dull, more like a BBQ tool. One weapon was what remained of a Spanish dragoon blade of 18th c, mounted with a M1821 three bar guard and a cast briquette hilt..it was pure Frankenstein!

Still this one looks like it could have been used in at least some degree if necessary, and the note on being cutlass like well placed. That would be good reason for shortening the blade.these cavalry blades were typically 33 to 36 ".

M ELEY · 20th July 2014, 09:28 PM

Must have missed this one! Very nice, rustic piece of Spanish colonial manufacture! Just my kind of sword! It brings up thoughts of piracy and the Spanish Main! I would concur that it would be classified as a cutlass, one put together out of disparation, typical of colonial areas that lacked sufficient sword smiths and materials.

Jim, you mentioned seeing a sword with a bowl guard like this one and a redundant straight crossguard under it. I saw one exactly like the one you describe in a shop in Florida years ago, also listed as 'a pirate sword!' Good to see another mystery sword pattern/form established by the Forum's members.

17th July 2014, 02:28 AM	#1
machinist Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 93	This sold today on Ebay, What manner of sword is it? I have never seen one quite like it, with the cup hilt I felt it belonged in the European forum although in may be South American? Attached Images

17th July 2014, 04:10 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	The cup looks like a casting; if not of aluminum it must be heavy . It also looks like the fuller runs off the point; maybe re-shaped ? Were any dimensions given ?

17th July 2014, 04:26 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	I agree with Rick, that blade looks like a hollow ground cavalry sabre type blade, but seems shortened while keeping the radiused hatchet type point. The 'cup or bowl' hilt does look heavy and cast, but seems to be a Spanish colonial blacksmith grade creation, which could be from Central or South America to Philippines, the Spanish Main in the 19th century was still pretty vast. The ferruled grip and appearance recalls sectioned hilts seen on certain Spanish swords (round tang espadas) and others. There seems no limit to variations of these ersatz type weapons, but they are intriguing.

17th July 2014, 04:46 PM	#4
machinist Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 93	Rick - It was 27.25 inches long overall. the seller said the cup was rusty as the rest of it so I would assume steel, it must have been quite heavy from how thick it looks. Jim - Trying to tie down a original source for a grip like that does seem rather difficult for the reasons you mentioned, it just seems like such a distinctive sword, almost a parody of a cutlass that it really incited my curiosity. Thanks for the responses

17th July 2014, 05:50 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Thanks for the added notes Machinist . The word 'parody' is brilliantly used here!!! actually that in a sense is what many of these arms curiosities were in Spanish colonial context, and many were simply interpretations of arms used as 'a sword' just for that sake alone. I have seen many weapons from Mexico which were from the Spanish colonial period which did indeed seem 'parodies', for example a clearly contrived shallow cup guard, with straight crossguard beneath it. It was clearly redundant and not a combat weapon, the blade was a thin, dull and apparently some sort of practice blade. I have seen blades which looked like a straight sword blade but was heavy, clumsy and dull, more like a BBQ tool. One weapon was what remained of a Spanish dragoon blade of 18th c, mounted with a M1821 three bar guard and a cast briquette hilt..it was pure Frankenstein! Still this one looks like it could have been used in at least some degree if necessary, and the note on being cutlass like well placed. That would be good reason for shortening the blade.these cavalry blades were typically 33 to 36 ".

20th July 2014, 09:28 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Must have missed this one! Very nice, rustic piece of Spanish colonial manufacture! Just my kind of sword! It brings up thoughts of piracy and the Spanish Main! I would concur that it would be classified as a cutlass, one put together out of disparation, typical of colonial areas that lacked sufficient sword smiths and materials. Jim, you mentioned seeing a sword with a bowl guard like this one and a redundant straight crossguard under it. I saw one exactly like the one you describe in a shop in Florida years ago, also listed as 'a pirate sword!' Good to see another mystery sword pattern/form established by the Forum's members.