High Hopes, African Dahomey {razor?}

Tim Simmons · 3rd October 2007, 06:53 PM

I could be on a flight of fantasy. I need lots of serious thought and comments on this piece.

I bought this on the idea it was quite a bit larger and a Dahomey/Benin ceremonial sabre. However when it arrived covered in old yellowed varnish, always a good sign to me, the size of the blade is 23cm long and the handle 22cm long. The wood of the handle seems certainly African as do many aspects to the blade which is still very sharp and the decoration. I am thinking we could be looking at a candidate for a Benin Amazon razor weapon. There is mention that they were a folding artifact. This could be that in casual observation this does indeed resemble a giant cut throat razor and outsiders may just have assumed that it folded. Why is it that such a often mentioned weapon does not appear in books on African art or weapons?

Am I unbelievably lucky?

I have some doubts but they are still smothered by my high hopes

. I will post a series of pictures that will explain all. If you think you know anything valid please do not hold back. Next stop could be the BM. Or just hide under the duvet.

Tim Simmons · 3rd October 2007, 07:08 PM

You can see my thinking here. The construction is fairly universal. the similarity may well be just that.

You can see that that the item in question has two rivets {the first rivet in the steel above the copper is clearly visible on the over side} like the Asian knife. The item in question also has a rivet through the copper part at the handle end.

The African stylistic similarities,

I could add more pictures if needed but I think you can get the idea? I need input on this. Thanks. Could it be seek and ye shall find?

Tim Simmons · 4th October 2007, 09:38 AM

Robert Edgerton mentions an 18" long razor in- Robert Edgerton, Warrior Women: The Amazons of Dahomey and the Nature of War (Westview Press, 2000. The weapon I post is 17" sadly I cannot obtian this book from amazon UK and it does not have a picture.

katana · 4th October 2007, 12:51 PM

Hi Tim,
interesting item.......I must admit that my first impression is Asian. Is it possible that it could be a pole arm ( ceremonial or functional) that has been shortened ?
When I researched the African short sword I acquired awhile ago ( it seemed likely Dahomney or neighbouring tribes.) I tried to discover common weapon forms of the area, I didn't find any reference to a weapon such as yours. I did read of references to a 'razor' but, from memory, I had the impression that this was a 'simple' blade which folded into a handle. (Sorry no pics) I'll try and find the description with the reference source.

Jim McDougall · 4th October 2007, 04:52 PM

Tim,
Nothing wrong with 'flights of fantasy'!

and with the unusual blade on this I can appreciate your inclination toward the somewhat distinct Dahomean blades found on the swords termed 'hwi'. It seems that one of these ceremonial weapons has similar crenallated blade back, but I cannot recall specifically and the reference is not at hand. It is shown in "Sabres Decores du Dahomey" (Palau Marti, 1967, but unfortunately cannot recall specific publication it appeared in, check bibliography in Spring for exact reference).

I recall the references to 'razors' in the book by Edgerton and some time ago was trying to determine more on this unusual weapons description as well. As you note the weapon in that book is listed as about 18", and I was also hoping for an illustration.

Burton (Book of the Sword, 1884) discusses these on p.168-69 from his observations in his trip to Dahomey in 1863, noting the warrior king Gezo, his love of varities of unusual weapons, and of course "...a company of Amazons, called razor women from the 'nyek ple nen toh' blade. This was simply a European razor on a large scale, with a steel of 30" rising from a plain handle of black wood, and kept open by a spring".

While the term 'nyek ple nen toh' is unclear in its exact meaning and is not defined in his copious footnotes, he does note that the reference to these weapons comes from his "Mission to Dahome" and is included with notes 'passim' along with other details. His comparison to a European razor of course held open by a spring with its huge size of 30" sounds questionable. His note sounds 'recollected' from notes some 19 years before, and I did not find evidence of such a collapsible weapon, but would look forward to hearing from anyone who knows of such a weapon in Africa. Since Gezo had such a fascination for unusual weapons and it sounds as if he was out to impress, it seems possible he may have created a number of such pieces in a ceremonial sense, but not necessarily for regular issue.

I am inclined to agree with Katana in his Asian assessment on this piece, as you have also surmised. The long handle reminds me of the dha form, which I defer more on to the Dha Guys! and clearly the incised marking at the blade center corresponds well to the other example knife you have shown.

I like the way you also present examples to show African similarities. Burton also notes the similarities in some weapons from India and Africa, suggesting that they may derive loosely from the same source weapons from Egypt, which of course is entirely plausible in a number of cases and in degree.

I would like to hear more on the Asian potential on this interesting weapon, and look forward to information from that field.
Thanks so much for sharing this piece......truly a great flight Tim!!!

All the best,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 4th October 2007, 07:52 PM

Jim I just do not know.

Having it in my hand and the wood, there is just something African to me. I have come down to earth a little and have abandoned the Razor Women weapon but not the general West African area. The constuction only appears similar to the knife I have shown with it. It is quite different in reality. The similarities are after all fairly universal, a stamp on a blade is not rare nor is the bolster on the item. Just to illustrate this I will post pics of a Nigerian knife. It would be fantastic if some of the Asian collectors could show me the error of my ways. It is a nasty little slashing weapon, it is light only just 250g. I just do not know for sure, need help from Asian collectors please. Could be Chinese?

Andrew · 6th October 2007, 04:24 PM

Hi Tim. I haven't been ignoring you on this one. I've been in trial and unable to spend much time on the forum or looking at my books.

I've never seen anything like this. It is quite beautiful. The blade profile, at least, does strike me as asian. However, I don't think it's a mak. Let me look at my sources a bit more.

Tim Simmons · 6th October 2007, 04:53 PM

Thanks Andrew. I still have Africa in the back of my mind especially with reference to the decoration on the copper. I do not think it is a Mak this is not a chopper the blade is light with some flex. Look how similar the bolster is on this and the Ram dao in the link. The is also the similarities in the blade decoration the fuller topped by the crenellation. Googling Kali worship also puts quite a spin on it.

katana · 6th October 2007, 05:21 PM

Stone shows a knife called a Bhuj Kutti, sometimes called an 'elephant knife' described as a heavy (?) single edged knife blade mounted inline with a single straight handle approx 20" long (not specified if OAL or just length of handle). The blade form illustrated is not the same, but there are similarities in the overall construction. I do not have a scanner so cant post the picture;
It is possible that yours is a varient, your pictures suggest that the knife is vintage rather than older, is this the case?

Jim McDougall · 6th October 2007, 05:36 PM

Nicely done observation on the ram dao Manolo! That was key!
Tim, I've really enjoyed this thread a lot because its been a genuine learning experience. I have never been especially keen on most Asian weapons due to express focus on other fields, but with this I have gained interest and insight toward them.
Although this has proven to be other than what you anticipated, it seems to have opened new doors in my opinion, equally exciting. The best thing in this thread has been shared investigation and observation which is what I always hope for in these threads with unusual items!

So getting back to that, now that the item in the catalog seems compellingly similar and identified as ram dao, on the issue of the copper which I noted as an important West African material. I think it is important to note the key use of brass and copper in Tantric votive items and material culture in Nepal and Tibet, and Im sure extensively elsewhere throughout the Buddhist sphere. It would be interesting to hear more on that from Rand, who is well versed on items from these regions.
I think your observation on the black grips and association to Kali worship is also very interesting, and would like to learn more on that.

All the best,

Jim

Tim Simmons · 9th October 2007, 09:19 PM

look at this thread again. I think I am right that this is African saying loud and proud. hallelujah James Brown

Jim McDougall · 10th October 2007, 05:13 AM

OK Tim, whassup???

Royston · 3rd November 2014, 02:54 PM

Hello Tim,

An old thread that I have just come across. Does this look familiar ?

22 inches long with an 11 inch blade.
Steel and dark wood.
I cannot make anything of the mark, even under high magnification I cannot even tell the type of script.

Nice though

Regards
Royston

spiral · 3rd November 2014, 07:16 PM

Does anyone else see any similarity with these?

Spiral

linky

Tim Simmons · 4th November 2014, 04:45 PM

Yes. To me there is nothing African about them. The work especially the bolster looks North India to Nepal.?

3rd October 2007, 06:53 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	High Hopes, African Dahomey {razor?} I could be on a flight of fantasy. I need lots of serious thought and comments on this piece. I bought this on the idea it was quite a bit larger and a Dahomey/Benin ceremonial sabre. However when it arrived covered in old yellowed varnish, always a good sign to me, the size of the blade is 23cm long and the handle 22cm long. The wood of the handle seems certainly African as do many aspects to the blade which is still very sharp and the decoration. I am thinking we could be looking at a candidate for a Benin Amazon razor weapon. There is mention that they were a folding artifact. This could be that in casual observation this does indeed resemble a giant cut throat razor and outsiders may just have assumed that it folded. Why is it that such a often mentioned weapon does not appear in books on African art or weapons? Am I unbelievably lucky? I have some doubts but they are still smothered by my high hopes . I will post a series of pictures that will explain all. If you think you know anything valid please do not hold back. Next stop could be the BM. Or just hide under the duvet.

3rd October 2007, 07:08 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	The doubts You can see my thinking here. The construction is fairly universal. the similarity may well be just that. You can see that that the item in question has two rivets {the first rivet in the steel above the copper is clearly visible on the over side} like the Asian knife. The item in question also has a rivet through the copper part at the handle end. The African stylistic similarities, I could add more pictures if needed but I think you can get the idea? I need input on this. Thanks. Could it be seek and ye shall find? Last edited by Tim Simmons; 3rd October 2007 at 07:41 PM.

3rd November 2014, 02:54 PM	#13
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Hello Tim, An old thread that I have just come across. Does this look familiar ? 22 inches long with an 11 inch blade. Steel and dark wood. I cannot make anything of the mark, even under high magnification I cannot even tell the type of script. Nice though Regards Royston Attached Images

4th October 2007, 09:38 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Robert Edgerton mentions an 18" long razor in- Robert Edgerton, Warrior Women: The Amazons of Dahomey and the Nature of War (Westview Press, 2000. The weapon I post is 17" sadly I cannot obtian this book from amazon UK and it does not have a picture.

4th October 2007, 12:51 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tim, interesting item.......I must admit that my first impression is Asian. Is it possible that it could be a pole arm ( ceremonial or functional) that has been shortened ? When I researched the African short sword I acquired awhile ago ( it seemed likely Dahomney or neighbouring tribes.) I tried to discover common weapon forms of the area, I didn't find any reference to a weapon such as yours. I did read of references to a 'razor' but, from memory, I had the impression that this was a 'simple' blade which folded into a handle. (Sorry no pics) I'll try and find the description with the reference source.

4th October 2007, 04:52 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Tim, Nothing wrong with 'flights of fantasy'! and with the unusual blade on this I can appreciate your inclination toward the somewhat distinct Dahomean blades found on the swords termed 'hwi'. It seems that one of these ceremonial weapons has similar crenallated blade back, but I cannot recall specifically and the reference is not at hand. It is shown in "Sabres Decores du Dahomey" (Palau Marti, 1967, but unfortunately cannot recall specific publication it appeared in, check bibliography in Spring for exact reference). I recall the references to 'razors' in the book by Edgerton and some time ago was trying to determine more on this unusual weapons description as well. As you note the weapon in that book is listed as about 18", and I was also hoping for an illustration. Burton (Book of the Sword, 1884) discusses these on p.168-69 from his observations in his trip to Dahomey in 1863, noting the warrior king Gezo, his love of varities of unusual weapons, and of course "...a company of Amazons, called razor women from the 'nyek ple nen toh' blade. This was simply a European razor on a large scale, with a steel of 30" rising from a plain handle of black wood, and kept open by a spring". While the term 'nyek ple nen toh' is unclear in its exact meaning and is not defined in his copious footnotes, he does note that the reference to these weapons comes from his "Mission to Dahome" and is included with notes 'passim' along with other details. His comparison to a European razor of course held open by a spring with its huge size of 30" sounds questionable. His note sounds 'recollected' from notes some 19 years before, and I did not find evidence of such a collapsible weapon, but would look forward to hearing from anyone who knows of such a weapon in Africa. Since Gezo had such a fascination for unusual weapons and it sounds as if he was out to impress, it seems possible he may have created a number of such pieces in a ceremonial sense, but not necessarily for regular issue. I am inclined to agree with Katana in his Asian assessment on this piece, as you have also surmised. The long handle reminds me of the dha form, which I defer more on to the Dha Guys! and clearly the incised marking at the blade center corresponds well to the other example knife you have shown. I like the way you also present examples to show African similarities. Burton also notes the similarities in some weapons from India and Africa, suggesting that they may derive loosely from the same source weapons from Egypt, which of course is entirely plausible in a number of cases and in degree. I would like to hear more on the Asian potential on this interesting weapon, and look forward to information from that field. Thanks so much for sharing this piece......truly a great flight Tim!!! All the best, Jim

4th October 2007, 07:52 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Jim I just do not know. Having it in my hand and the wood, there is just something African to me. I have come down to earth a little and have abandoned the Razor Women weapon but not the general West African area. The constuction only appears similar to the knife I have shown with it. It is quite different in reality. The similarities are after all fairly universal, a stamp on a blade is not rare nor is the bolster on the item. Just to illustrate this I will post pics of a Nigerian knife. It would be fantastic if some of the Asian collectors could show me the error of my ways. It is a nasty little slashing weapon, it is light only just 250g. I just do not know for sure, need help from Asian collectors please. Could be Chinese?

6th October 2007, 04:24 PM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi Tim. I haven't been ignoring you on this one. I've been in trial and unable to spend much time on the forum or looking at my books. I've never seen anything like this. It is quite beautiful. The blade profile, at least, does strike me as asian. However, I don't think it's a mak. Let me look at my sources a bit more.

6th October 2007, 04:53 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Thanks Andrew. I still have Africa in the back of my mind especially with reference to the decoration on the copper. I do not think it is a Mak this is not a chopper the blade is light with some flex. Look how similar the bolster is on this and the Ram dao in the link. The is also the similarities in the blade decoration the fuller topped by the crenellation. Googling Kali worship also puts quite a spin on it.

6th October 2007, 05:21 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Stone shows a knife called a Bhuj Kutti, sometimes called an 'elephant knife' described as a heavy (?) single edged knife blade mounted inline with a single straight handle approx 20" long (not specified if OAL or just length of handle). The blade form illustrated is not the same, but there are similarities in the overall construction. I do not have a scanner so cant post the picture; It is possible that yours is a varient, your pictures suggest that the knife is vintage rather than older, is this the case?

6th October 2007, 05:36 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Nicely done observation on the ram dao Manolo! That was key! Tim, I've really enjoyed this thread a lot because its been a genuine learning experience. I have never been especially keen on most Asian weapons due to express focus on other fields, but with this I have gained interest and insight toward them. Although this has proven to be other than what you anticipated, it seems to have opened new doors in my opinion, equally exciting. The best thing in this thread has been shared investigation and observation which is what I always hope for in these threads with unusual items! So getting back to that, now that the item in the catalog seems compellingly similar and identified as ram dao, on the issue of the copper which I noted as an important West African material. I think it is important to note the key use of brass and copper in Tantric votive items and material culture in Nepal and Tibet, and Im sure extensively elsewhere throughout the Buddhist sphere. It would be interesting to hear more on that from Rand, who is well versed on items from these regions. I think your observation on the black grips and association to Kali worship is also very interesting, and would like to learn more on that. All the best, Jim

9th October 2007, 09:19 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	look at this thread again. I think I am right that this is African saying loud and proud. hallelujah James Brown

10th October 2007, 05:13 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	OK Tim, whassup???

3rd November 2014, 07:16 PM	#14
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Does anyone else see any similarity with these? Spiral linky

4th November 2014, 04:45 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Yes. To me there is nothing African about them. The work especially the bolster looks North India to Nepal.?