English Short Sword

celtan · 16th October 2009, 05:31 AM

Hi Guys,

I have had this sword for a long while. Originally bough same as belonging to the "Tower Of London Beefeater" guards, but it doesn't seem to fit the bill, at least to me.

The blade was soiled to the point of blackness. Once cleaned, it evidenced faded and worn signs of its original etching. The words "Covent Garden" were eventually seen, very faint, at its ricasso. The half-shell guard's shield seems to correspond to the Portcullis in London's Westminster Abbey.

The etching and fish skin grips seem to suggest a post 1850s to early 20th C. manufacture date.

Any ideas, beyond what I already know? A coronation guard? An abbey grounds warden?

I know there were at least a couple sword retailers at Covent Garden: "Hamburger Rogers & Co" and "J & B PEARSE & CO".

(BTW, I hope this is not another of the usual cases where nobody else knows more than I do. )

: )

Best

Manolo

Caveat: This, as any of any and all of the other blades in my collection, may be sold at some point in time in the future..!

kahnjar1 · 16th October 2009, 06:22 AM

The badge is the Customs and Excise/Revenue (British) badge, so presumably their Dress?? sword/dagger??
Regards Stuart

celtan · 16th October 2009, 11:57 AM

Thank you Stuart!

And yet, the portcullis and chains are the traditional Tudor and Westminster Arms, and in mine, the hat-piece over the Portcullis looks more like a miter than a crown. Even so, your suggestion seems very plausible. Now I need to research that venue.

Thanks for again coming to the rescue!

Best regards.

: )

Manolo

Jim McDougall · 16th October 2009, 05:23 PM

Manolo, what an exceptionally unusual item, which I believe may indeed be associated with the 'Beefeaters', who were termed Tower Warders, and I believe accordingly these may be considered one of thier swords. The style of the weapon is very much in accord with particular corps and departmental swords of the Victorian period, noting that Stuarts suggestion is quite plausible as well.

It seems of course that I have seen something similar in references on British military swords, although these guards are comprised of retired military men of considerable standing and this is unofficially a yeomanry unit. I have checked "Swords of the British Army" (Brian Robson, 1975), but no reference was found, therefore I think it is in one of the earlier books which I do not have with me. Possibly "British Military Swords 1800 to Present Day" by John Wilkinson-Latham (1966) or another one which I cant recall specifically, I think something with similar title, also by another of the Wilkinson's but cannot recall which.
It is possible that it was in the venerable "Sword, Lance & Bayonet" by Ffoulkes and Hopkinson (1938), but these books I have not seen for some time.

In any case, as you have noted, the Westminster arms are indeed with the charges of the portcullis and chains, so are not necessarily confined to the customs unit. The portcullis and chains on the shellguard on your sword would keenly represent the Tower warders as they indeed were in charge of prisoners entering through 'London Gate', the portcullis seen.

Hamburger Rogers were as noted outfitters located in Covent Garden, and I have seen thier etched panel on officers swords of c. 1860's-80's.

I hope this will help a little, and thank you for your candor in noting that this will be an item for sale in the future. It is a most interesting piece and I am glad we had a chance to discuss it here first. I have, as noted, it seems seen something like this at some point in a reference book, but cannot recall ever seeing one offered or discussed, as there cannot have been any significant volume of them.

All very best regards,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 16th October 2009, 08:06 PM

Hi,
The form of the Yoeman Warders sword from the early days of Queen Victoria's reign is as per the attached photograph. The crown on Manolo's sword is I believe the Tudor crown used before the Hanoverians, 1714, and more recently between 1901 and 1953, the Georges, William IV and Victoria used St. Edward's crown which is the one used currently by EIIR. Hope this is of some help.
Regards,
Norman.

kahnjar1 · 16th October 2009, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
The form of the Yoeman Warders sword from the early days of Queen Victoria's reign is as per the attached photograph. The crown on Manolo's sword is I believe the Tudor crown used before the Hanoverians, 1714, and more recently between 1901 and 1953, the Georges, William IV and Victoria used St. Edward's crown which is the one used currently by EIIR. Hope this is of some help.
Regards,
Norman.

Thanks Norm for explaining the difference in the crown shape. The style of crown varies, and has varied thru the ages depending on the Monarch on the throne at the time. Sorry I was remiss in not saying this originally.
Regards Stuart

Dmitry · 19th October 2009, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I have checked "Swords of the British Army" (Brian Robson, 1975), but no reference was found, therefore I think it is in one of the earlier books which I do not have with me. Possibly "British Military Swords 1800 to Present Day" by John Wilkinson-Latham (1966) or another one which I cant recall specifically, I think something with similar title, also by another of the Wilkinson's but cannot recall which.
It is possible that it was in the venerable "Sword, Lance & Bayonet" by Ffoulkes and Hopkinson (1938), but these books I have not seen for some time.

This sword is neither in the W-L, nor in the ffoulkes book. In fact, it's in none of my books on the subject of British edged weapons.

Jim McDougall · 19th October 2009, 08:06 PM

Thanks very much for that confirmation Dmitry, now I can rest easy knowing that this was not in those references which are not available.....but, now the maddening thing is, where the heck did I see something like this?!!!
I think that is the worst thing, like having something on the tip of your tongue, but cant remember it.....kinda seems to happen more for me these days!!

Great observations and comments guys (Gene, loved the 'costume drama' note! LOL

. It does seem the neoclassic scene does come in quite a bit in these dress pieces.

Norman, thank you for confirming the Tower warders pattern sword, I had seen that form before but wasnt sure of the periods it entailed.

I agree with Manolo, 'curioser and curioser!' and its great fun to see us as the contingent of 'weapons whisperers' working together as detectives!!

We'll find it.

All the best,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 19th October 2009, 08:56 PM

Hi,
This may or may not be helpful! go to, www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/g09.pdf
Regards,
Norman.

kahnjar1 · 19th October 2009, 09:46 PM

Now that IS interesting.
Gene,you now have a contact to send those pics.
Manolo, the plot thickens!
Norm, thanks for that information. I personally did not know that this symbol was so widely used.
Regards Stuart

Dmitry · 19th October 2009, 11:38 PM

Customs can be excluded from the list, imho. From the 1820s onward, the British Customs officers swords followed the Royal Navy and Army patterns, to a degree, and used the same swords as the prison guards for their fighting cutlasses. In any case, they look nothing like this sword.

My feeling, by the look of it, this could be a civil guard/warden's piece.

Atlantia · 20th October 2009, 01:54 PM

Ok Gents,
Well I've made some calls.

Imperial war museum.
No luck, can't seem to get through to the right person so I've left a message.

Tower of London.
Managed to sweet talk them into letting me speak to the curator of armouries who deals with swords. Lovely lady, actualy happened to be looking through a book on yeomanry weapons and uniforms at the time!!
I've sent her the pictures and she will let us know if she can ID it or hopefully point us in the right direction if she cannot.
I contacted her because the Tower has one of the finest collections in the UK and its curators should be familiar with the regalia of London.

She has suggested from my telephone description that if she cannot help, we might try Westminster Palace, or the Kensington Palace court dress collection.

P.S.
A thought has just occured.
The chain on the portcillis is very short (in number of links)
Could this be an identifying factor?

Bryan.H · 20th October 2009, 02:19 PM

Here's one on the oldswords.com database...

The description given is:

"Item Description (Item Id: 103775)

Overall length 26.5 inches, and with a 20.25 inch blade, this is double edged and of shallow diamond section, it is etched with a panel with E.Woods & Son Bow St Covent Garden, the hilt has white metal mounts and the shell guard is cast with a crowned portcullis, the handle is covered with fish-skin and bound with wire, some areas of staining to the blade, otherwise good condition"

No reference to whom this sword was issued though.

Atlantia · 20th October 2009, 02:33 PM

Well, that proves one thing.
This is not a marriage or altered item.

Gotta go out now. Midwife appointment for my Mrs and me

Will report progress if any when I get back. (couple of hours)
In the meantime, does anyone want to try and track down an email address for the other collections suggested?

Gene

Norman McCormick · 8th May 2017, 09:41 PM

Hi,
Came across some information which may put this to rest i.e. a dealers website with the same item and described as a sword of the Queen's Westminster Rifles. See attached photo of their regimental cap badge.
Regards,
Norman.

16th October 2009, 05:31 AM	#1
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	English Short Sword Hi Guys, I have had this sword for a long while. Originally bough same as belonging to the "Tower Of London Beefeater" guards, but it doesn't seem to fit the bill, at least to me. The blade was soiled to the point of blackness. Once cleaned, it evidenced faded and worn signs of its original etching. The words "Covent Garden" were eventually seen, very faint, at its ricasso. The half-shell guard's shield seems to correspond to the Portcullis in London's Westminster Abbey. The etching and fish skin grips seem to suggest a post 1850s to early 20th C. manufacture date. Any ideas, beyond what I already know? A coronation guard? An abbey grounds warden? I know there were at least a couple sword retailers at Covent Garden: "Hamburger Rogers & Co" and "J & B PEARSE & CO". (BTW, I hope this is not another of the usual cases where nobody else knows more than I do. ) : ) Best Manolo Caveat: This, as any of any and all of the other blades in my collection, may be sold at some point in time in the future..! Attached Images

16th October 2009, 06:22 AM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	The badge is the Customs and Excise/Revenue (British) badge, so presumably their Dress?? sword/dagger?? Regards Stuart Attached Images Last edited by kahnjar1; 16th October 2009 at 07:04 AM.

16th October 2009, 08:06 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi, The form of the Yoeman Warders sword from the early days of Queen Victoria's reign is as per the attached photograph. The crown on Manolo's sword is I believe the Tudor crown used before the Hanoverians, 1714, and more recently between 1901 and 1953, the Georges, William IV and Victoria used St. Edward's crown which is the one used currently by EIIR. Hope this is of some help. Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 16th October 2009 at 08:57 PM.

19th October 2009, 08:06 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Thanks very much for that confirmation Dmitry, now I can rest easy knowing that this was not in those references which are not available.....but, now the maddening thing is, where the heck did I see something like this?!!! I think that is the worst thing, like having something on the tip of your tongue, but cant remember it.....kinda seems to happen more for me these days!! Great observations and comments guys (Gene, loved the 'costume drama' note! LOL. It does seem the neoclassic scene does come in quite a bit in these dress pieces. Norman, thank you for confirming the Tower warders pattern sword, I had seen that form before but wasnt sure of the periods it entailed. I agree with Manolo, 'curioser and curioser!' and its great fun to see us as the contingent of 'weapons whisperers' working together as detectives!! We'll find it. All the best, Jim

20th October 2009, 02:19 PM	#13
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	Identical sword, but still a mystery... Here's one on the oldswords.com database... The description given is: "Item Description (Item Id: 103775) Overall length 26.5 inches, and with a 20.25 inch blade, this is double edged and of shallow diamond section, it is etched with a panel with E.Woods & Son Bow St Covent Garden, the hilt has white metal mounts and the shell guard is cast with a crowned portcullis, the handle is covered with fish-skin and bound with wire, some areas of staining to the blade, otherwise good condition" No reference to whom this sword was issued though. Attached Images

16th October 2009, 11:57 AM	#3
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Thank you Stuart! And yet, the portcullis and chains are the traditional Tudor and Westminster Arms, and in mine, the hat-piece over the Portcullis looks more like a miter than a crown. Even so, your suggestion seems very plausible. Now I need to research that venue. Thanks for again coming to the rescue! Best regards. : ) Manolo

16th October 2009, 05:23 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Manolo, what an exceptionally unusual item, which I believe may indeed be associated with the 'Beefeaters', who were termed Tower Warders, and I believe accordingly these may be considered one of thier swords. The style of the weapon is very much in accord with particular corps and departmental swords of the Victorian period, noting that Stuarts suggestion is quite plausible as well. It seems of course that I have seen something similar in references on British military swords, although these guards are comprised of retired military men of considerable standing and this is unofficially a yeomanry unit. I have checked "Swords of the British Army" (Brian Robson, 1975), but no reference was found, therefore I think it is in one of the earlier books which I do not have with me. Possibly "British Military Swords 1800 to Present Day" by John Wilkinson-Latham (1966) or another one which I cant recall specifically, I think something with similar title, also by another of the Wilkinson's but cannot recall which. It is possible that it was in the venerable "Sword, Lance & Bayonet" by Ffoulkes and Hopkinson (1938), but these books I have not seen for some time. In any case, as you have noted, the Westminster arms are indeed with the charges of the portcullis and chains, so are not necessarily confined to the customs unit. The portcullis and chains on the shellguard on your sword would keenly represent the Tower warders as they indeed were in charge of prisoners entering through 'London Gate', the portcullis seen. Hamburger Rogers were as noted outfitters located in Covent Garden, and I have seen thier etched panel on officers swords of c. 1860's-80's. I hope this will help a little, and thank you for your candor in noting that this will be an item for sale in the future. It is a most interesting piece and I am glad we had a chance to discuss it here first. I have, as noted, it seems seen something like this at some point in a reference book, but cannot recall ever seeing one offered or discussed, as there cannot have been any significant volume of them. All very best regards, Jim

19th October 2009, 08:56 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi, This may or may not be helpful! go to, www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/g09.pdf Regards, Norman.

19th October 2009, 09:46 PM	#10
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Now that IS interesting. Gene,you now have a contact to send those pics. Manolo, the plot thickens! Norm, thanks for that information. I personally did not know that this symbol was so widely used. Regards Stuart

19th October 2009, 11:38 PM	#11
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Customs can be excluded from the list, imho. From the 1820s onward, the British Customs officers swords followed the Royal Navy and Army patterns, to a degree, and used the same swords as the prison guards for their fighting cutlasses. In any case, they look nothing like this sword. My feeling, by the look of it, this could be a civil guard/warden's piece.

20th October 2009, 01:54 PM	#12
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Ok Gents, Well I've made some calls. Imperial war museum. No luck, can't seem to get through to the right person so I've left a message. Tower of London. Managed to sweet talk them into letting me speak to the curator of armouries who deals with swords. Lovely lady, actualy happened to be looking through a book on yeomanry weapons and uniforms at the time!! I've sent her the pictures and she will let us know if she can ID it or hopefully point us in the right direction if she cannot. I contacted her because the Tower has one of the finest collections in the UK and its curators should be familiar with the regalia of London. She has suggested from my telephone description that if she cannot help, we might try Westminster Palace, or the Kensington Palace court dress collection. P.S. A thought has just occured. The chain on the portcillis is very short (in number of links) Could this be an identifying factor?

20th October 2009, 02:33 PM	#14
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Well, that proves one thing. This is not a marriage or altered item. Gotta go out now. Midwife appointment for my Mrs and me Will report progress if any when I get back. (couple of hours) In the meantime, does anyone want to try and track down an email address for the other collections suggested? Gene

8th May 2017, 09:41 PM	#15
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi, Came across some information which may put this to rest i.e. a dealers website with the same item and described as a sword of the Queen's Westminster Rifles. See attached photo of their regimental cap badge. Regards, Norman. Attached Images