My first antique blade, help with ID?

AUhills79 · 24th July 2020, 06:32 PM

Hi all, I just recently acquired my first real antique blade and am hoping to find out more about it. Actually I don't even know whether to call it a "knife" or a "sword"? It has a 15 inch blade, and is 21 inches total in length. Perhaps a broken sword repurposed into a hunting knife? I've been doing some research myself but haven't come up with much and am admittedly no sword expert. I have been able to translate the Latin text on the blade although the symbols are still unknown. It has the same text and symbols on both sides of the blade except for a makers mark by the hilt on only one side.

On the blade:
"Me fecit Solingen"
"Nec Temere : Nec Timidi"
PLUS UNKNOWN SYMBOLS*
(Timidi should have been Timide in correct grammar)

This translates to:
"I was made in Solingen"
and the phrase,"Neither Rashly, Nor Timidly"
(Seems a more fitting phrase for a blade carried into battle than for a hunting knife.)

I purchased it from an antique dealer in Texas advertised as a 100-150 yr old hunting knife planning to carry with me on pheasant, raccoon, and hog hunts but haven't had a sheath made for it yet. A lot of times I hunt with antique 18-19th century flintlock and percussion sporting guns and wanted a period knife or hunting sword to carry as well. If I find out this is something with any real historic value though I might be hesitant to take it out hunting & camping with me.

I appreciate any input, thanks!
Peter S.

shayde78 · 24th July 2020, 07:56 PM

Welcome to the forum, AU!

I really like this blade. I am certain the fullers and markings will allow someone on here to place where it comes from and what it looked like in it's original form. It does indeed look like it is cut down from something larger. I'm not sure it has been mounted on this hilt for very long. The antler near the guard is uniform in color, and from what I've seen on here, one can typically expect that the junction of steel to antler would cause some discoloration in that area over time. Of course, I am notoriously bad at judging things from photos, so wait for the experts!

Still,an handsome piece, and I'll be following the discussion to see what expertise others can lend.

Philip · 24th July 2020, 10:43 PM

deleted: info posted after looking at images but not reading text

Philip · 24th July 2020, 10:59 PM

deleted: duplicate info posted after looking at images but not reading text first. Duh!

Rick · 24th July 2020, 11:10 PM

I expect that blade is substantially older than the Dealer's estimate.
Possibly Spanish Colonial?
I believe the handle and blade have been together for a fairly long time also.

Will M · 25th July 2020, 04:09 AM

I would think the handle is as much as 70 years old. There is a modern vise mark on the blade ricasso someone used to assemble the grip to the blade.
The blade is very interesting and am waiting for it to be identified..

M ELEY · 25th July 2020, 05:39 AM

To me, it appears to be what you indicated. A hunting knife made from a cut-down German sword. This was not an uncommon event at all. I have a British naval dirk ca. 1800 with an old sword cut-down blade. The honey yellow antler seems to possess age, as does the guard. "Eye-shaped" or diamond guards like the one on yours seemed to pop up in the second quarter of the 19th century and of course is a pattern still seen today. I would place it pre-1900 based on patina and styling, American side-knife or hunting dagger. Knives like these were seen on the American frontier, carried by Confederate soldiers as side knives (NOT bowie knives!). A general search of the internet will find some close comparisons. I'm not at home right now, but there's a pic of a knife nearly exact to yours in one of my books at home. You have a very interesting piece there!
Mark

Philip · 25th July 2020, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I expect that blade is substantially older than the Dealer's estimate.

I agree. Blades marked ME FECIT SOLINGEN were widely produced, often with misspelled Latin inscriptions of a pious or patriotic nature, for export across Europe and even to the East in the 17th to beginning 18th centuries. You find them far and wide in all sorts of blade shapes -- sabers, backswords, riding-swords -- mounted up as Caucasus shashkas, Indian firangis, and so forth. A few were even mounted up by artisans in the Forbidden City of Peking and presented to the emperors of China.

a fascinating example of this:

An article in Vaabenhistoriske Aarboger Vol XVI about a Japanese sword with a European blade makes reference to a dated ME FECIT SOLINGEN 1633 (or 1635, inscription worn) but possibly of Dutch manufacture from the spelling of its other inscription, P....SSS KEJSER, ANNO..... An interesting thing, it is a recycled sword blade remounted as an aikuchi knife in Japan, the blade shortened, tang replaced with one of Japanese shape, and tempered and polished in Japanese manner with remains of the inscriptions visible as above, in a lacquered scabbard bearing the mon of the Matsuda family . (Present location unknown, was exhibited by the UK's Tôken Kai at the Ashmolean Museum, Oxford, 1968, cat. no. 95).

AUhills79 · 25th July 2020, 09:37 PM

Really exciting to find out it's so much older than I thought! Even though it's not in it's original form that's part of it's history and the fact that the blade and inscriptions are probably around 400 years old is fascinating. It only weighs 13 ounces, fits in the right hand perfectly, has a sharp edge, and is super comfortable to handle but it has too much history and too nice of a patina to take it out hunting & camping like I originally planned. I think I will find another antique hunting knife to carry and keep this one preserved as is. Glad I posted on here before I started using it in the woods!

Thanks to your comments I've been googling "Backsword made in Solingen" and found this example with an almost identical double fuller blade. This one was made in the mid 16th century and re-hilted in it's current form in 1620-1640. It's a horseman's backsword with a 38 inch long blade! Mine likely looked very similar originally. (Pictures attached, I think it's ok to post pics and link since it's already been sold)

Source:
https://www.antique-swords.com/H21-1...Backsword.html

Some quick research shows there appears to be little variation in-between the double fullers on backswords made in Solingen during the 16th-17th century's. Maybe the maker's mark on mine will help narrow it down to a more exact date but right now it looks like the earliest it could have been forged is during the mid-16th, latest is mid-late 17th century. Correct me if I'm wrong.

colin henshaw · 25th July 2020, 04:36 PM

A good looking knife, congratulations ! I like it, the blade especially...

As already noted, the blade does look very much in profile like some of those cut-down sword blades to be found on 18th century or older Scottish Highland dirks. I have seen very similar in museums.

From the images, I would guess the staghorn hilt does not appear to have been on there for so long, but of course it may seem older when handling.

A great first acquisition...

24th July 2020, 06:32 PM	#1
AUhills79 Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Location: North Carolina, USA Posts: 8	My first antique blade, help with ID? Hi all, I just recently acquired my first real antique blade and am hoping to find out more about it. Actually I don't even know whether to call it a "knife" or a "sword"? It has a 15 inch blade, and is 21 inches total in length. Perhaps a broken sword repurposed into a hunting knife? I've been doing some research myself but haven't come up with much and am admittedly no sword expert. I have been able to translate the Latin text on the blade although the symbols are still unknown. It has the same text and symbols on both sides of the blade except for a makers mark by the hilt on only one side. On the blade: "Me fecit Solingen" "Nec Temere : Nec Timidi" PLUS UNKNOWN SYMBOLS* (Timidi should have been Timide in correct grammar) This translates to: "I was made in Solingen" and the phrase,"Neither Rashly, Nor Timidly" (Seems a more fitting phrase for a blade carried into battle than for a hunting knife.) I purchased it from an antique dealer in Texas advertised as a 100-150 yr old hunting knife planning to carry with me on pheasant, raccoon, and hog hunts but haven't had a sheath made for it yet. A lot of times I hunt with antique 18-19th century flintlock and percussion sporting guns and wanted a period knife or hunting sword to carry as well. If I find out this is something with any real historic value though I might be hesitant to take it out hunting & camping with me. I appreciate any input, thanks! Peter S. Attached Images

24th July 2020, 10:43 PM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	deleted: info posted after looking at images but not reading text Last edited by Philip; 24th July 2020 at 11:21 PM. Reason: duplicate info

24th July 2020, 10:59 PM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	deleted: duplicate info posted after looking at images but not reading text first. Duh! Last edited by Philip; 24th July 2020 at 11:23 PM. Reason: duplicate info

25th July 2020, 09:37 PM	#9
AUhills79 Member Join Date: Jul 2020 Location: North Carolina, USA Posts: 8	Really exciting to find out it's so much older than I thought! Even though it's not in it's original form that's part of it's history and the fact that the blade and inscriptions are probably around 400 years old is fascinating. It only weighs 13 ounces, fits in the right hand perfectly, has a sharp edge, and is super comfortable to handle but it has too much history and too nice of a patina to take it out hunting & camping like I originally planned. I think I will find another antique hunting knife to carry and keep this one preserved as is. Glad I posted on here before I started using it in the woods! Thanks to your comments I've been googling "Backsword made in Solingen" and found this example with an almost identical double fuller blade. This one was made in the mid 16th century and re-hilted in it's current form in 1620-1640. It's a horseman's backsword with a 38 inch long blade! Mine likely looked very similar originally. (Pictures attached, I think it's ok to post pics and link since it's already been sold) Source: https://www.antique-swords.com/H21-1...Backsword.html Some quick research shows there appears to be little variation in-between the double fullers on backswords made in Solingen during the 16th-17th century's. Maybe the maker's mark on mine will help narrow it down to a more exact date but right now it looks like the earliest it could have been forged is during the mid-16th, latest is mid-late 17th century. Correct me if I'm wrong. Attached Images

24th July 2020, 07:56 PM	#2
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Welcome to the forum, AU! I really like this blade. I am certain the fullers and markings will allow someone on here to place where it comes from and what it looked like in it's original form. It does indeed look like it is cut down from something larger. I'm not sure it has been mounted on this hilt for very long. The antler near the guard is uniform in color, and from what I've seen on here, one can typically expect that the junction of steel to antler would cause some discoloration in that area over time. Of course, I am notoriously bad at judging things from photos, so wait for the experts! Still,an handsome piece, and I'll be following the discussion to see what expertise others can lend.

24th July 2020, 11:10 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	I expect that blade is substantially older than the Dealer's estimate. Possibly Spanish Colonial? I believe the handle and blade have been together for a fairly long time also.

25th July 2020, 04:09 AM	#6
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	I would think the handle is as much as 70 years old. There is a modern vise mark on the blade ricasso someone used to assemble the grip to the blade. The blade is very interesting and am waiting for it to be identified..

25th July 2020, 05:39 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	To me, it appears to be what you indicated. A hunting knife made from a cut-down German sword. This was not an uncommon event at all. I have a British naval dirk ca. 1800 with an old sword cut-down blade. The honey yellow antler seems to possess age, as does the guard. "Eye-shaped" or diamond guards like the one on yours seemed to pop up in the second quarter of the 19th century and of course is a pattern still seen today. I would place it pre-1900 based on patina and styling, American side-knife or hunting dagger. Knives like these were seen on the American frontier, carried by Confederate soldiers as side knives (NOT bowie knives!). A general search of the internet will find some close comparisons. I'm not at home right now, but there's a pic of a knife nearly exact to yours in one of my books at home. You have a very interesting piece there! Mark

25th July 2020, 04:36 PM	#10
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	A good looking knife, congratulations ! I like it, the blade especially... As already noted, the blade does look very much in profile like some of those cut-down sword blades to be found on 18th century or older Scottish Highland dirks. I have seen very similar in museums. From the images, I would guess the staghorn hilt does not appear to have been on there for so long, but of course it may seem older when handling. A great first acquisition...