Assistance requested for ID of smallsword

shayde78 · 15th August 2017, 08:02 PM

Hello all,

I'm hoping some of you will be able to provide some information on the item pictured below. Approx 38" overall, 31" straight/single edged blade. I haven't seen this hilt form before, but my experience is VERY limited. The guard is totally unadorned. There are simple (but cleanly executed) oak leaves rendered on the pommel and finials. There also are nearly invisible oak leaves on the blade, but I cannot get them to show in a photo.

I initially assumed it was a repro, but am not so sure. Even so, is it intended to represent an actual model? Fingers crossed.

As always, thank you for sharing your expertise.

ulfberth · 16th August 2017, 01:58 PM

Hello Shayde,

its no repro but a German or better Prussian model of 19th C small sword.
These were also made for export to other countries at the time.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

Roland_M · 16th August 2017, 02:54 PM

Hello,

as Ulfberth said, this sword looks like a german IOD aA (Infanterie Offiziers Degen alter Art), which means Infantry Officer Epee old type.

The short ricasso means normally around 1860 or earlier but there is no signature and other decorations and the hilt is not the same as on my IOD.

references: http://www.zietenhusar.wg.am/iod_aa/

Regards,
Roland

kronckew · 16th August 2017, 06:01 PM

looks like a german infantry officer's sword, 2nd half 18c. i suspect the wood hilt was once wrapped in twisted or braided wire.

the general hilt style was common in europe and GB and even the USA used them for NCOs up to the civil war. officers of course bought their own swords and they thus vary a bit.

Saxony, it appears, was fond of the finger rest.

here's one from the saxony electorate:

shayde78 · 17th August 2017, 07:34 PM

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Would an authentic example have (gulp) a threaded tang?

Also, the singular finger rest (can it rightly be called a pas d'ane given its position?) seems a very practical feature for a single edged weapon as it allows for easy indexing. A double edged blade can have a more symmetrical layout. Is this a fair thought?

kronckew · 17th August 2017, 11:31 PM

the pas d'ane is usually loops on both sides, the single one is as mentioned usually found on single edged blades. other weapons can have them too like my espada (pic below)

many sabres have this feature as a leather loop, sometimes missing in older swords, polish sabres may be found with thumb loops rather than forefinger ones. it aids control and improves the grip.

the pas d'ane on some smallswords is more decorative and not large enough to insert a finger. small swords with triangular blades do not really need indexing. the example i posted appears to be double edged, tho of course it's mostly a thrusting weapon that can cut a bit if sharp. with the full bow guard, the upper edge, while useful for back cuts, is not the main edge.

when i was fencing, i liked an italian grip, you could put two fingers thru the pas d'ane and strap the pommel to your wrist, aided and locked & strengthened the grip and as it was not a cutting weapon, did not need or benefit from having the wrist flexible.

shayde78 · 19th August 2017, 05:40 AM

A gilded cousin, perhaps. http://c.tutti.ch/images/antiker-sel...0356717345.jpg here

I'm embarrassed to say, but even after four years of German classes, I need help translating the description:

Preussischer Infanterie Offiziersdegen "IOD" alter Art [this I can understand]

Einschneidige Klinge, beiderseits mit Hohlbahn und Hohlkehle
Klingenrücken mit Händlername und Herstellungsort bezeichnet:
Keibel in Berlin
Gefäss aus Messing vergoldet
Griffhilze aus Holz
Griffzwinge mit einem Bügel um Finger aufzulegen, was den Degen troz seiner stattlichen Grösse führig macht, ähnlich wie die öfters anzutreffende Fingerlasche aus Leder

15th August 2017, 08:02 PM	#1
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Assistance requested for ID of smallsword Hello all, I'm hoping some of you will be able to provide some information on the item pictured below. Approx 38" overall, 31" straight/single edged blade. I haven't seen this hilt form before, but my experience is VERY limited. The guard is totally unadorned. There are simple (but cleanly executed) oak leaves rendered on the pommel and finials. There also are nearly invisible oak leaves on the blade, but I cannot get them to show in a photo. I initially assumed it was a repro, but am not so sure. Even so, is it intended to represent an actual model? Fingers crossed. As always, thank you for sharing your expertise. Attached Images

16th August 2017, 02:54 PM	#3
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Hello, as Ulfberth said, this sword looks like a german IOD aA (Infanterie Offiziers Degen alter Art), which means Infantry Officer Epee old type. The short ricasso means normally around 1860 or earlier but there is no signature and other decorations and the hilt is not the same as on my IOD. references: http://www.zietenhusar.wg.am/iod_aa/ Regards, Roland Attached Images

16th August 2017, 06:01 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	looks like a german infantry officer's sword, 2nd half 18c. i suspect the wood hilt was once wrapped in twisted or braided wire. the general hilt style was common in europe and GB and even the USA used them for NCOs up to the civil war. officers of course bought their own swords and they thus vary a bit. Saxony, it appears, was fond of the finger rest. here's one from the saxony electorate: Attached Images

17th August 2017, 11:31 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	the pas d'ane is usually loops on both sides, the single one is as mentioned usually found on single edged blades. other weapons can have them too like my espada (pic below) many sabres have this feature as a leather loop, sometimes missing in older swords, polish sabres may be found with thumb loops rather than forefinger ones. it aids control and improves the grip. the pas d'ane on some smallswords is more decorative and not large enough to insert a finger. small swords with triangular blades do not really need indexing. the example i posted appears to be double edged, tho of course it's mostly a thrusting weapon that can cut a bit if sharp. with the full bow guard, the upper edge, while useful for back cuts, is not the main edge. when i was fencing, i liked an italian grip, you could put two fingers thru the pas d'ane and strap the pommel to your wrist, aided and locked & strengthened the grip and as it was not a cutting weapon, did not need or benefit from having the wrist flexible. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 17th August 2017 at 11:46 PM.

16th August 2017, 01:58 PM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 403	Hello Shayde, its no repro but a German or better Prussian model of 19th C small sword. These were also made for export to other countries at the time. Kind regards Ulfberth

17th August 2017, 07:34 PM	#5
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Thanks everyone for the feedback. Would an authentic example have (gulp) a threaded tang? Also, the singular finger rest (can it rightly be called a pas d'ane given its position?) seems a very practical feature for a single edged weapon as it allows for easy indexing. A double edged blade can have a more symmetrical layout. Is this a fair thought?

19th August 2017, 05:40 AM	#7
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	A gilded cousin, perhaps. http://c.tutti.ch/images/antiker-sel...0356717345.jpg here I'm embarrassed to say, but even after four years of German classes, I need help translating the description: Preussischer Infanterie Offiziersdegen "IOD" alter Art [this I can understand] Einschneidige Klinge, beiderseits mit Hohlbahn und Hohlkehle Klingenrücken mit Händlername und Herstellungsort bezeichnet: Keibel in Berlin Gefäss aus Messing vergoldet Griffhilze aus Holz Griffzwinge mit einem Bügel um Finger aufzulegen, was den Degen troz seiner stattlichen Grösse führig macht, ähnlich wie die öfters anzutreffende Fingerlasche aus Leder